Hamilton: Maybe it's because I'm black

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Originally Posted by Rollo

This is related, and may be a useful guide for the principle involved here:

New driving code of conduct for V8s - Speedcafe
It outlines new passing procedures that underline the car’s B pillar as the strict passing point that an overtaking car must achieve at the approach, apex and exit of any corner.

Effectively the B-Pillar on an F1 car is that point at which cockpit meets engine cover at the rollover hoop. I don't think that Lewis' front wheel ever passed that point and therefore no effective pass was ever made.

Since the fault of accidents is almost always incumbent on the following car, then this accident was Lewis' fault; the video hasn't changed my opinion of that.



+1 to this.

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I would say the front wing is the A pillar and the rear wing the B pillar :p :

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Originally Posted by henners88

I think F1 drivers who drive fast for a living should pay close attention to discussion forums full of armchair experts who infact understand fully what its like to approach a corner, and drive around it, even if split second decisions are better understood from within the car. I had no idea how to approach St. Devote until a few minutes ago, but I do now. I also know exactly what went through Pastor and Lewis's head in the seconds leading up to their incident. They are right when they say all the answers are on the internet.

Hoot Your Trap Off

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Some of us "armchair critics" are actually people who have raced before, maybe not an F1 car (I would give both my nuts for the opportunity), but the principles of racing are all the same.

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Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

I don't think Maldonado can be criticsed too harshly because Hamilton was probably in his blind spot by the time they collided.

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Pastor is not some old biddy filling out their insurance claim after driving into an overtaking car on the motorway, he is an F1 driver and should know better.

Blind spot my 4r53!

Besides, if you think something may be in your 'blind spot' you turn your head to ckeck. Blind faith is best left to lemmings.... ;)

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Originally Posted by henners88

I've raced karts for many years, but I am no expert around Monaco and certainly not when it comes to commenting on what a Formula One driver should be thinking in the seconds when decelerating from 180mph.


Here's a good amateur video of the Massa incident. Both at fault IMO. Massa turns in way too early and Lewis shouldn't have been there.

YouTube - ‪Monaco F1 tight squeeze around the Fairmont famous Hairpin turn‬‏

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Racing is racing, some cars are just faster than others, but your driving ability and the ability to handle the car should go up as you move to the higher formula's. If you can't handle it or make the right decisions you should not be racing in that formula. The basic principles of racing and how to overtake as is being discussed here is the same from karting right through to F1.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

Racing is racing, some cars are just faster than others, but your driving ability and the ability to handle the car should go up as you move to the higher formula's. If you can't handle it or make the right decisions you should not be racing in that formula. The basic principles of racing and how to overtake as is being discussed here is the same from karting right through to F1.

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Are you therefore suggesting Pastor is not ready for big boy F1?

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Are you therefore suggesting Pastor is not ready for big boy F1?

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No, I'm suggesting that Hammy had a brain fade. Hammy is brilliant around Monaco, always has been in any formula he's raced there. Dare I even say he's better than Senna ever was around Monaco? But you would not have though that after watching him crash into everyone last Sunday.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

No, I'm suggesting that Hammy had a brain fade. Hammy is brilliant around Monaco, always has been in any formula he's raced there. Dare I even say he's better than Senna ever was around Monaco? But you would not have though that after watching him crash into everyone last Sunday.

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Ah, but Lewis has not had an 'out of body' qualifying experience yet, so he's a way to go before he's better that Ayrton round there.....

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

Racing is racing, some cars are just faster than others, but your driving ability and the ability to handle the car should go up as you move to the higher formula's. If you can't handle it or make the right decisions you should not be racing in that formula. The basic principles of racing and how to overtake as is being discussed here is the same from karting right through to F1.

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The basic principles are that if there is an opponent alongside you, then you don't turn in on him. I have been karting for many years and done some single seater races but never have I not realised an opponent is beside me in the position Hammy was in. You can hear it, you can sense it and you can see it in your mirrors.

Hammy had no brain fade. We've seen far more daring maneuvers than that pulled off in the past.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Ah, but Lewis has not had an 'out of body' qualifying experience yet, so he's a way to go before he's better that Ayrton round there.....

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Define "out of body" :p :

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

Hammy had no brain fade.

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I think Massa, Mouldy and Co. would disagree with you here ;)

Last Sunday was not the normal Hammy that we all love to see racing. It was as if someone like Crashing Sato or Swerving Irvine was sitting in that Macca...not Hammy.

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Originally Posted by henners88

I think we are getting our wires crossed here and you are getting defensive because you think I am part of the 'Lewis Brigade' and am jumping on any criticism of the guy. I'm clearly not. :)

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Sounds good then - i'm certainly no 'Lewis basher' either but more than happy to pull him up in this instance as I feel he was on the wire all race. One can only hope we see Catalunya Lewis at the next race ;)

Another word on this, I do expect to see Maldonado involved in a lot more incidents like this. Drivers like him tend to repeat things like this. Eventually you will all look back and realise Hammy was right :p

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

Define "out of body" :p :

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Monaco Grand Prix 1988

Ayrton Senna was in his debut season with McLaren when he once again excelled on the streets of Monte Carlo.

The Sao Paulo native was now teammates with Alain Prost, but that did not prevent him out-performing his colleague emphatically in Monaco.

Senna claimed a stunning pole position, pushing himself to the limit en route to a lap two seconds faster than the quickest Prost could muster.

His imperious form continued into the race as Senna dominated from the front, rampaging through the street circuit to build up a lead of 55 seconds over Prost before sensationally crashing into the barriers on lap 67.

He later claimed his superior speed around the harbor circuit was the result of an outer-body experience beyond his “conscious understanding”, but it was Prost who claimed the checkered flag

From: AT&T Williams

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

Another word on this, I do expect to see Maldonado involved in a lot more incidents like this. Drivers like him tend to repeat things like this. Eventually you will all look back and realise Hammy was right :p

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We are going to have to talk again at the end of the season then ;)

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Monaco Grand Prix 1988

Ayrton Senna was in his debut season with McLaren when he once again excelled on the streets of Monte Carlo.

The Sao Paulo native was now teammates with Alain Prost, but that did not prevent him out-performing his colleague emphatically in Monaco.

Senna claimed a stunning pole position, pushing himself to the limit en route to a lap two seconds faster than the quickest Prost could muster.

His imperious form continued into the race as Senna dominated from the front, rampaging through the street circuit to build up a lead of 55 seconds over Prost before sensationally crashing into the barriers on lap 67.

He later claimed his superior speed around the harbor circuit was the result of an outer-body experience beyond his “conscious understanding”, but it was Prost who claimed the checkered flag

From: AT&T Williams

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I remember Monaco 88 (I was just 11 at the time and a Prost fan), but when he talked about it, it sounded more like he had smoked a joint and that was his "out of body" experience :p :

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

I remember Monaco 88 (I was just 11 at the time and a Prost fan), but when he talked about it, it sounded more like he had smoked a joint and that was his "out of body" experience :p :

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It was all academic in the end, as he stacked it after being told to ease off in the race. But that was typical Ayrton - he gave it everything in his quest to utterly destroy Prost on the racetrack, and his 2 seconds faster qually lap is a testament to this pursuit.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

We are going to have to talk again at the end of the season then ;)

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Indeed. It may even take another season or two but you'll eventually realise I was right :D

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

It was all academic in the end, as he stacked it after being told to ease off in the race. But that was typical Ayrton - he gave it everything in his quest to utterly destroy Prost on the racetrack, and his 2 seconds faster qually lap is a testament to this pursuit.

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He was a very unique and driven individual :up: I loved his fights with Prost. They were legendary :)

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

Indeed. It may even take another season or two but you'll eventually realise I was right :D

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Cheeky SOB :p :

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Monaco Grand Prix 1988

Ayrton Senna was in his debut season with McLaren when he once again excelled on the streets of Monte Carlo.

The Sao Paulo native was now teammates with Alain Prost, but that did not prevent him out-performing his colleague emphatically in Monaco.

Senna claimed a stunning pole position, pushing himself to the limit en route to a lap two seconds faster than the quickest Prost could muster.

His imperious form continued into the race as Senna dominated from the front, rampaging through the street circuit to build up a lead of 55 seconds over Prost before sensationally crashing into the barriers on lap 67.

He later claimed his superior speed around the harbor circuit was the result of an outer-body experience beyond his “conscious understanding”, but it was Prost who claimed the checkered flag

From: AT&T Williams

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McLaren said long time ago that the crash was due to a slow puncture.

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Originally Posted by Mia 01

Is it so, every other driver should be afraid of Lewis and move out of his way to victory. For sure he belives it, and a big shunk of his fans.

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To an extent. It was a technique which Ayrton Senna relied on occasionally: to literally scare drivers out of the way becuase he had a reputation that he was coming through regardless. Dirty, calculating, cynical... perhaps. But it worked.

Another case of engage-brain-before-speaking for Lewis.
The Ali G quote is stupid and in poor taste but not malicious I think, it was just said in a moment of frustration. For me, it's the inability to take responsibility for his actions and the total lack of respect and arrogance towards his fellow drivers that's disappointing. I know being successful requires a certain level of self believe and confidence but that doesn't have to translate into disrespecting your peers. Paul di Resta virtually had an identical incident in Monaco and yet he held his hands up, apologised and assumed responsibility. Lewis needs to learn some humility and stop making these stupid comments.

Be interesting to see how Lewis responds around Canada. He is normally brilliant around there. Could be a crazy race, and we could see somone like Lewis step up and finally beat Vettel the Bull.

I think to a degree everyone who is involved in a collision is a bit to blame. To finish First, first you must finish as they say.


Lewis was a bit quick to dive up the inside of Maldonado knowing he is a rookie, he could well make a mistake, and Pastor made an error and cost himself points. Don't think he would have done that just to keep Hamilton behind, he must have just misunderstood the incident in that split second and his inexperience cost him points, while Lewis just needed to be careful.

I know it was 3 or 4 laps only from the end, and lewis takes risks, but if he had retired along with Pastor then 0 points as opposed to 6 or whatever he got.

When I first saw the incident between Lewis and Pastor. I had it as 80%-20% Lewis fault.

Now after seeing it again I agree he was along way up the inside, but I stand by with a driver like Maldonado you are never quite sure how they will react.

I now have the collision at about 50-50.

As for the Massa Incident, well that was silly and clumsy.

If you look at the replay Massa was very close to Webber and actually touched him, I think while looking for Lewis behind him he was caught out by how close he was to Webber and this caused the change of line into the hairpin.

I think it was all too close and sometimes at Monaco with 4 or 5 cars nose to tail even if there is a half gap to pass, you sometimes need to just sit behind the car in front and wait for the cars ahead to spread a little.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Yeah, but how come Shoe saw it, Pastor was clueless? Inexperience or recklessness?

You say Pastor made his defence (weaving) but he still left t'door open.....

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There are a number of reasons why Pastor might not have seen him .

As one can see from the stills provided , the shoe went in at a different angle , clearly showing the intention of taking the corner on the racing line . He is experienced enough to know that he had another option there , if he entered on line . He had it figured by then , that Lewis was going to make his attempt at a pass .
We can't know if he knew because of his mirrors , or his ears , as the McLaren came alongside , but he reacted by giving room , as he knew he was there .

If you look at the Maldonado incident , he has a car ahead he is watching , and no doubt can hear .
He also has another car besides Lewis not too far behind that he can likely hear as well .
Then , he has Lewis to listen for as well , all in the echo chamber of Ste Devote , at the end of the main straight "hall" .

When it gets crowded in there , and it was , you don't get that clear sonic clue where Lewis was , that Michael had . Michael had no others around him but Lewis .

Given he had a guy ahead , Pastor had that distraction as well .


If you add to that , the fact that he tried and failed to intimidate Lewis , going in at first , a different angle , and second , tighter , it means he likely figured he wasn't there at all until it was too late .

It should be obvious to all that he would not have turned in to cause a crash . That would be stupid , especially near the end of the race , with his team as it is , so lacking in points .

From all I've seen , I don't believe he knew he was there , and further than that , I think he thought he wasn't there .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

There are a number of reasons why Pastor might not have seen him .

As one can see from the stills provided , the shoe went in at a different angle , clearly showing the intention of taking the corner on the racing line . He is experienced enough to know that he had another option there , if he entered on line . He had it figured by then , that Lewis was going to make his attempt at a pass .
We can't know if he knew because of his mirrors , or his ears , as the McLaren came alongside , but he reacted by giving room , as he knew he was there .

If you look at the Maldonado incident , he has a car ahead he is watching , and no doubt can hear .
He also has another car besides Lewis not too far behind that he can likely hear as well .
Then , he has Lewis to listen for as well , all in the echo chamber of Ste Devote , at the end of the main straight "hall" .

When it gets crowded in there , and it was , you don't get that clear sonic clue where Lewis was , that Michael had . Michael had no others around him but Lewis .

Given he had a guy ahead , Pastor had that distraction as well .


If you add to that , the fact that he tried and failed to intimidate Lewis , going in at first , a different angle , and second , tighter , it means he likely figured he wasn't there at all until it was too late .

It should be obvious to all that he would not have turned in to cause a crash . That would be stupid , especially near the end of the race , with his team as it is , so lacking in points .

From all I've seen , I don't believe he knew he was there , and further than that , I think he thought he wasn't there .

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Erm, sorry now but this is completely far fetched wishful thinking here. You're saying that Maldonado couldn't tell the difference in hearing a car two or three metres from his head and a one 100m in front of him? You're also saying that a car a further 50M back somehow made him believe Lewis wasn't there? This is desparate. Hearing a car 100M in front of you and a one 50 M behind is fine but the McLaren was right beside him. C'mon now, in fairness, he had his mirrors, he had his ears and a McLaren engine pumping into his ears and you say to me that he didn't know Lewis was there? If he can't distinguish between a McLaren right in his ear and two cars 100M in front and 50M behind him the man should not be in F1. The cars around him have nothing to do with influencing his decision.

I agree it's possible he didn't know Lewis was there, but that's only the case if he wasn't listening and didn't look in his mirrors or hadn't positioned them correctly. If an F1 driver hasn't done that then any incident that occurs as a result of that is his fault.

*Senna movie spoiler alert*

[youtube]ko94oniszuA[/youtube]

LOL, I was wondering when that clip would rear its head.

Senna's lets call it 'style' has no place in modern F1... Now if you lament this then tough, but F1 has moved on and in doing so has not had a driver fatality for 17 years longer than t any time in it's history... a fact I wish to see extened.

Just because 20+ years ago it was acceptable to 'race' by being more willing to crash and force a pass than the next guy (despite the actual risk to life) we should be more accepting of Hamiltons 'style' today... well I don't think so.... Lewis relies in part on the fact that he is the only one driving like this... if everyone chose to emulate his more cavalier approach we would have nothing but safety cars and red flags.

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Originally Posted by Cooper_S

LOL, I was wondering when that clip would rear its head.

Senna's lets call it 'style' has no place in modern F1... Now if you lament this then tough, but F1 has moved on and in doing so has not had a driver fatality for 17 years longer than t any time in it's history... a fact I wish to see extened.

Just because 20+ years ago it was acceptable to 'race' by being more willing to crash and force a pass than the next guy (despite the actual risk to life) we should be more accepting of Hamiltons 'style' today... well I don't think so.... Lewis relies in part on the fact that he is the only one driving like this... if everyone chose to emulate his more cavalier approach we would have nothing but safety cars and red flags.

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Couldn't agree more. People are trying to justify last weekend because Senna would have done the same or Schumacher let Hamilton through or whatever, that's besides the point, Hamilton aimed for spaces he must surely have known weren't going to be there in a second or two and he got penalised.......

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

Erm, sorry now but this is completely far fetched wishful thinking here. You're saying that Maldonado couldn't tell the difference in hearing a car two or three metres from his head and a one 100m in front of him? You're also saying that a car a further 50M back somehow made him believe Lewis wasn't there? This is desparate. Hearing a car 100M in front of you and a one 50 M behind is fine but the McLaren was right beside him. C'mon now, in fairness, he had his mirrors, he had his ears and a McLaren engine pumping into his ears and you say to me that he didn't know Lewis was there? If he can't distinguish between a McLaren right in his ear and two cars 100M in front and 50M behind him the man should not be in F1. The cars around him have nothing to do with influencing his decision.

I agree it's possible he didn't know Lewis was there, but that's only the case if he wasn't listening and didn't look in his mirrors or hadn't positioned them correctly. If an F1 driver hasn't done that then any incident that occurs as a result of that is his fault.

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So it comes down to the fact that Hamilton is perfect and can do no wrong and OBVIOUSLY Massa and Maldonado should have just let him through.....

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Couldn't agree more. People are trying to justify last weekend because Senna would have done the same or Schumacher let Hamilton through or whatever, that's besides the point, Hamilton aimed for spaces he must surely have known weren't going to be there in a second or two and he got penalised.......

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Do you want a procession? Overtaking has an element of risk.

Lewis is a racer - yes it comes at a price but he's pulled off some fantastic moves in his time.

I have to say that Hamilton's moves on Maldonado and also Schumacher were pretty much banzai moves, which for instance Sato got a lot of bashing for many years ago. You may expect some of such moves to work out, but they will never work out consistently, so Lewis can take a look in the mirror. Especially in Maldonado's case he was never alongside going into the corner, so this wasn't going to work out in a clean way.

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Originally Posted by wedge

Do you want a procession? Overtaking has an element of risk.

Lewis is a racer - yes it comes at a price but he's pulled off some fantastic moves in his time.

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Yes and the risk is that if you don't make the move stick and take the other guy out, that you get penalised.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Yes and the risk is that if you don't make the move stick and take the other guy out, that you get penalised.

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You're basically saying that anytime someone tries to do an overtaking maneuver that, no matter how well positioned they are, the other guy simply has to turn in on him and then that guy is at fault. Jaysus.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

So it comes down to the fact that Hamilton is perfect and can do no wrong and OBVIOUSLY Massa and Maldonado should have just let him through.....

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Every driver does wrong, and Hamilton has done so himself, as I said a few posts up. But he didn't in this case. Definitely not.

Found this onboard footage of Hamilton and Massa. It shows Hamilton getting alongside Massa in the tunnel

YouTube - ‪F1 2011 Monaco Hamilton Onboard Crash Massa‬‏

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

You're basically saying that anytime someone tries to do an overtaking maneuver that, no matter how well positioned they are, the other guy simply has to turn in on him and then that guy is at fault. Jaysus.

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Well if Felipe and Pastor wanted to make their corners they had to turn in sometime......

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Well if Felipe and Pastor wanted to make their corners they had to turn in sometime......

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Been over that. They both turned in too early. Only difference with the Massa one is that Hamilton actually was over ambitious.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

Been over that. They both turned in too early.

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According to the Lewis Hamilton fan club......