Ant wasn't the only Kawasaki rider having dramas today!!
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Ant wasn't the only Kawasaki rider having dramas today!!
04 May 2008
TRICKY CONDITIONS HAMPER KAWASAKI IN SHANGHAI
Kawasaki's John Hopkins and Anthony West were left frustrated today, after rear traction problems left them unable to fulfil their true potential in this afternoon's 22-lap Chinese Grand Prix. Hopkins finished a difficult race in 14th position, with West crossing the line a further 20 seconds back in 17th place.
After qualifying on the fifth row of the grid yesterday, Hopkins was quick to make up places from the start of today's race. The Anglo-American put himself in touch with the leaders, including eventual race winner Valentino Rossi, by riding around the outside of the field at turn one. Unfortunately, Hopkins had it all to do again after a coming together with Alex de Angelis forced him to run on at the end of the main straight, and left him nursing a painful puncture wound after catching his knee on his own foot peg.
Rear traction problems hampered the 24-year-old Kawasaki pilot's attempts to work his way back through the field, but his persistence and determination were rewarded with two valuable championship points, as he fought his way up to 14th place by race end.
The main straight also caused problems for West, who was passed by his teammate after running off the track early on in the race. Like Hopkins, the 27-year-old Australian was frustrated by a lack of rear grip from the start of the race, but he also identified a lack of front-end grip under braking as being a major factor in his disappointing result.
With both riders having declared themselves satisfied with the performance of their Ninja ZX-RR machines in race trim and on race tyres yesterday, the reason for such an unexpected deterioration in rear traction was not immediately apparent. Kawasaki's engineers will now look to the data to identify the problem ahead of the next race, which takes place at Le Mans in just two weeks time.
John Hopkins: #21 - 14th
"We went out in the wet warm-up session this morning with high hopes of a good result in the rain or dry today. By the time we got to the race, the circuit had started to dry out and we had to make a decision on tyre choice, which maybe wasn't the best. I struggled right from the start with rear traction problems, and I pushed hard to make my way through the field. I made a few mistakes and ran off the track in places, it was a really tough race. I'm very disappointed as it's not the result I wanted for my hundredth Grand Prix, but we must stay focussed and try to make amends at the next round."
Anthony West: #13 - 17th
"I was looking for a better result than this today. The conditions were not ideal as the track was quite slippery after being wet this morning and it gradually dried out during the race. I followed John for a few laps and I think we were both experiencing similar problems with a lack of rear grip. I ran off the track in places because I just couldn't make the bike stick. I'm frustrated, as we need to make headway with these issues we've been having, but I'm determined for us to make a step forwards very soon."
Michael Bartholemy: Kawasaki Competition Manager
"I am disappointed with the result today as it isn't where I predicted us to be. We are not here to finish in the positions we achieved in the race. Shanghai is a circuit that we've performed quite well at in the past and I felt that we would gain better results here than in the opening rounds of the season. We suffered with rear traction problems in the race and both riders struggled to find grip. Now we have to look forward to Le Mans and everybody must work hard to improve our results there."
MotoGP Race Result:
1. Valentino Rossi (46) Fiat Yamaha 44'08.061; 2. Dani Pedrosa (SPA) Repsol Honda Team +3.890; 3. Casey Stoner (AUS) Ducati Marlboro Team +15.928; 4. Jorge Lorenzo (SPA) Fiat Yamaha +22.494; 5. Marco Melandri (ITA) Ducati Marlboro Team +26.957; 6. Nicky Hayden (USA) Repsol Honda Team +28.369; 7. Colin Edwards (USA) Yamaha Tech 3 +29.780; 8. Toni Elias (ITA) Alice d'Antin Ducati +30.225; 9. Loris Capirossi (ITA) Rizla Suzuki MotoGP +31.440; 10. Shinya Nakano (JPN) Honda Gresini +35.969; 14. John Hopkins (USA) Kawasaki Racing Team +45.855; 17. Anthony West (AUS) Kawasaki Racing Team +1'05.593
I must say that this time people can't blame Westy for a shocker this time, as Hoppa had a shocker as well, struggling with the same problem as Ant. Come on Kwaka, sort this out and give the boys a fighting chance. I think if Kawasaki want to get serious, they need to have 2 factory bikes and a satelite team as well to speed up development. I think sending the Motogp crew to WSBK to help them out was a bit daft when they can't get their own bike sorted. I am a Kawasaki fan, but I am very frustrated right now.
I bet Ant and Hopper are a tad frustrasted :) too!!
West still needs to find something though as after the first encouraging session when he was 11th, he dropped back to his usual spot at the back of the field. Hopkins had quite a fast race pace pretty much all weekend running around 5th to 8th until race day when they took a wrong tack on tires. That is the problem with variable weather conditions, settings and tires become a gamble and the green guys lucked out. Kwak still nedd to improve to win but I reckon they're at least as good or better than Zook and in proper conditions they will be up there.Quote:
Originally Posted by maxu05
I think the Kwak is just as good as the Zooks as well. I don't think it will be too long before Hoppa sticks it on the podium. Westy will improve, I'm sure, but, I am not holding my breath waiting for a podium from him. I hope I am wrong, but it's not looking too promising right now. Perhaps Westy/Kawasaki should consider the radical setup that Yamaha tried with Edwards for Qualifying in China, perhaps it might work.
This year has to be pretty tough on Ant, I mean he's finally got what he's always wanted, a factory MotoGP with a good amount of off-season testing (granted he was injured at the time) but it's just not working out for him at all. His new to the team team-mate has got the better of him and he already knows that it's a slim to zero chance that he'll be retained by the team next year (what with Kawasaki having already approached Valentino Rossi and Andrea Dovizioso and rumoured to be approaching Nicky Hayden and Alvaro Bautista). It seems the best Ant can hope for out of season 2008 is to not be fired before Valencia, I mean at the moment the only thing he's got over what Olivier Jacque did last year is that he's still able to ride the bike. :\
I hadn't heard that they had approached Andrea Dovizioso!!
Mm ...Makes it difficult as I like both Ant and Dovi as riders....I cheer for both of them and it would be hard if one got outed to make way for the other..
But thats racing isn't it!!
Good to see you back Matt :up:
That is a tough call, Ant or Dovi. The heart says Ant, the head says Dovi IMO
Whilst I've been a fan of Ant's since he was racing 250 proddies years ago, Dovi was the one that I always thought that Kawasaki should have made a big push for last year. I think they've now missed out on him as a result (I'm expecting him to be elevated to the Repsol team) and I'm still happy that Ant got the chance to ride a good factory bike and hope that he will shortly have a Melandri-like click moment where they can sort the bike out to his liking.
In positive news, the main man at KRT, Michael Bartholemy has thrown his full support behind Westy to at least finish the year out with the team and they have altered the performance criteria for him to retain his ride in 2009. Now this might just sound like PR to deflect unwanted negative attention and rumours about the team but he elaborates further.
"Westy is now a big part of my life because I hate it when people think I might have made a mistake (in chosing West). I will do everything I can to help him perform - I will make him train and be mentally fit to race a MotoGP bike", says Bartholemy. They have arranged for him to move his base from Austria to Belgium, to improve his physical and mental fitness and directed that his manager, Harris Barnett, not attend GP's as his constant minder (for some reason).
Nice to see that Wests team haven't given up on him and neither have I. :up:
batholomew already blew it by publicly mentioning that they were recruiting dovi for 2009. i know that professional riders are supposed to be super mentally strong, but that bit of news 2 races into the season would crush anyone's confidence.
i think it's al between the ears for ant. no way a rider of Ant's caliber performs WORSE after an entire offseason of testing than he did with almost no testing.
Ant needs a
Aussie Aussie Aussie
Oi Oi Oi
To show him that we are all behind him come what may...
If I remember rightly, Bartholemy said that Rossi would be their number 1 target to recruit for next year followed by Dovi and Bautista. Whilst he didn't say any of these guys was a definate to ride for them next year, you're right in saying it can't be good for Ant's morale to know that they're already looking at other riders for next year. Having said that though, he also mentioned that they were expecting to run 3 bikes next year so all I assume is that their plans were/are to run Westy on the 3rd bike as the riders listed as targets weren't mentioned as though they would land a few of 'em. At the end of the day, West's goal is quite simple. Ride fast and make it irresistable for KRT to re-sign him.Quote:
Originally Posted by T-D
Perhaps he needs an Ant, Ant, Ant - Oi, Oi, Oi! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Roby44
MotGP meets MXGP
Check it out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXWXK...=press&id=1132
Jack
14 May 2008
WEST CONQUERS CÔTE DE LA REDOUTE
Kawasaki's Anthony West completed one of the hardest physical challenges he's ever faced on Sunday 11th May, when he cycled the 137km Tilff-Bastogne-Tilff sportive route.
The sportive ride follows the route of "La Doyenne", the oldest classic race on the Pro-Tour cycling calendar, which was won this year by Spaniard Alejandro Valverde. And while the full route is more than 230km in length, the 137km covered by Ant on Sunday took in all of the major climbs that regularly feature in the Pro-Tour race, including the infamous Côte de la Redoute, which reaches a maximum gradient of 20% at it's steepest point.
It was an impressive performance from West, who covered more miles on this one outing than he's ridden since taking up road cycling just three weeks ago. The 26-year-old Aussie completed the course in a time of six hours, which for a novice cyclist was pretty exceptional.
"I only intended to do the 68km route originally, but I thought I might as well carry on after I passed the turn-off for the shorter loop," said West. "I was feeling good on the outward leg of the longer loop, but on the return leg the hills started to take their toll."
"I couldn't believe how steep some of them were, or how long. The Col du Rosier seemed to go on forever, certainly longer than the 4500 metres it mentioned on the route map. But the big one was definitely the Côte de la Redoute, which just appears out of nowhere after 121km. When I turned the corner onto the main part of the climb it was like looking up at a wall!"
Once over the Côte de la Redoute, West had just over five kilometres of downhill in which to recover, before rolling into the picturesque town of Tilff to complete his epic journey.
"At the end I was completely exhausted, but it was a good feeling to actually finish. I guess I enjoyed it, but I'm not sure I'd do it again, although some of the team are threatening to sign me up for the full 237km route next year! It's hard to believe that the majority of the people riding the event were doing it for fun," concluded Kawasaki's answer to Lance Armstrong.
West's PA, Ben Skepper, and Kawasaki's Communications Manager, Ian Wheeler, also completed the event, but both opted for the shorter 68km route.
"I did the longer route last year, but I'd been training for it for months, and I still found it incredibly hard," declared Wheeler. "It's pretty impressive that Ant, who hadn't done more than 100km in total on a road bike before this event, managed to complete the course in such a quick time. I guess it just goes to show that you need a good level of base fitness to ride a MotoGP bike week in, week out."
Completing the Kawasaki line-up at the Tilff-Bastogne-Tilff sportive was the team's sticker and print guru, Dany Haag, who was accompanied on the 137km route by four members of the Helowa Cycling Club, who are based in Eupen, Belgium - where Anthony West now lives during the racing season.
He sure does put in the effort doesn't he??
Great effort Ant, but, keep it up. If you need some inspiration, just look at Bayliss. I hope this gets him fired up and boosts his confidence.
Ant should give up cycling, its too dangerous.
Bayliss was injured at Assen because he crashed while cycling, Rolfo crashed on his mountain-bike while training and missed Monza, and Broc Parkes was injured at Monza because he crashed his bicycle.
Funny when you think that these guys ride 2 wheel monsters for a living that they crash while riding push-bikes
Seems it's a dangerous pasttime. Team Kawasaki Australia rider has missed races in the last few years and the recent tests because of crashing his treadlie. His teammate also missed the test because of a jet-ski incident. I think perhaps they should stick to the excerise bikes.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisS
I think one of the commentators last week in Superbikes was saying that too.
It is hard to imagine though isn't it? They spend so much time out there on the track at break neck speeds and "mostly" nothing happens. But put them on pushbikes and .. :confused:
16 May 2008
KAWASAKI DUO SEE IMPROVEMENTS AT LE MANS
Kawasaki's John Hopkins and Anthony West finished today's opening practice sessions ahead of Sunday's French Grand Prix in ninth and 16th positions respectively, after focussing on refining machine set-up during the two, one-hour track sessions.
Hopkins spent most of the two practice sessions perfecting the set-up of his Ninja ZX-RR to suit the stop-start, hard braking nature of the 4.18km Bugatti circuit. The Anglo-American ran through different tyre options with Bridgestone, lapping quickly and consistently, despite some difficulties with feeling in the front end of his machine.
Hopkins remains confident ahead of tomorrow, where he is sure that with some further refinements in the set-up of his Kawasaki, he can improve his lap time significantly. The 24-year-old Kawasaki pilot ended the day with a best time of 1'35.133, less than a second off fastest man, Dani Pedrosa.
Teammate West ended the practice sessions in more confident mood compared to previous rounds. The Australian, who makes his Le Mans debut on a MotoGP machine this weekend, feels more comfortable on his Ninja ZX-RR, after Kawasaki's engineers made minor changes to the power delivery of their 800cc, inline four-cylinder engine.
While he was unhappy with his finishing position today, West admitted he was able to lap more consistently and he remains confident that, tomorrow, he can improve on his final lap time of 1'35.877. The 26-year-old is aware of the particular areas of the track where traction issues are slowing him down, and the Kawasaki pilot is hoping that with the data collected today the team can continue making improvements during tomorrow's qualifying session.
John Hopkins: #21: 9th – 1'35.133
'Le Mans is a track I quite enjoy and although the position isn't where we want to be, I'm feeling confident. We've used the practice sessions today to find a tyre combination that works well in both the front and rear. At the moment we're struggling a little bit with feeling in the front-end, which is costing us time. It's nothing particularly major as we can lap quickly and consistently, but I feel that an improvement in this will reduce our lap time considerably. We have a few ideas on how to achieve this and tomorrow we'll be aiming for a good qualifying position.'
Anthony West: #13: 16th – 1'35.877
'I'm feeling a little bit more confident here today than I have in previous rounds. The circuit seems to suit our bike, as there are not so many turns here where the bike is leaned over for long periods of time, and this is where we've experienced problems in the past. We've made some alterations to my Ninja ZX-RR and I feel a lot more comfortable as I can use the bike's strength on corner entry to put together reasonable lap times. The position isn't anywhere near where we want to be, but I can lap consistently and this is a good sign as we were unable to do this before. There are two longer corners in the track where we need to improve traction, but we have some direction now and I hope we can continue with this tomorrow.'
Naoya Kaneko: Kawasaki Technical Manager
'Today we have been trying many tyre combinations that suit different conditions, as the weather here in Le Mans is very changeable. With John we have found a good set-up, although this needs to be refined in order for him to achieve the position we are looking for. Anthony is making steps forward and his lap times are much more consistent. We have altered the power delivery of his machine, which has made a big difference and the aim is to build on this further during tomorrow. We still have a lot of work to do but I am confident we can gain a good result here.'
Practice Times:
1. Dani Pedrosa (SPA) Repsol Honda Team 1'34.227; 2. Casey Stoner (AUS) Ducati Marlboro Team +0.049; 3. Colin Edwards (USA) Tech 3 Yamaha +0.060; 4. Jorge Lorenzo (SPA) Fiat Yamaha +0.260; 5. Chris Vermeulen (AUS) Rizla Suzuki MotoGP +0.403; 6. Valentino Rossi (ITA) Fiat Yamaha +0.659; 7. Shinya Nakano (JPN) San Carlo Honda Gresini +0.820; 8. Randy De Puniet (FRA) LCR Honda +0.846; 9. John Hopkins (USA) Kawasaki Racing Team +0.906; 10. Alex De Angelis (RSM) San Carlo Honda Gresini +1.012; 16. Anthony West (AUS) Kawasaki Racing Team +1.650
Only a second and a half from the leader is a massive improvement from Ant and hopefully it can continue. Day 2 is starting off damp so who knows.
Now the team are asking the tough questions of Ant.
http://www.crash.net/motorsport/moto...to_change.html
Another bad race from the Ant, it's not looking any better. I think he should just go out there and not give a flying ..... ,(insert word of choice). That has always served him in the past and it could be the attitude that can get him closer to the front. Just a thought.
For sure.. Its got to that stage now hasn't it?? Just get out there and go for it, he has more to win than lose.
18 May 2008
BAD LUCK DOGS KAWASAKI AT LE MANS
Despite a strong start to today’s French Grand Prix at Le Mans, Kawasaki’s John Hopkins saw any chance of a top five finish disappear just after the halfway point in the race, when the chain on his Ninja ZX-RR snapped without warning.
The 24-year-old Anglo-American had fought his way through into seventh place during the early stages of the race and was closing rapidly on the battle for fifth when the incident occurred. It was a bitterly disappointed Hopkins who was forced to park the chainless bike against the Armco barrier and walk back to the paddock.
It is the first time that such a failure has occurred, despite many miles of testing and racing. Kawasaki’s race engineers will now return with the chain to Japan, where they will work with the manufacturer to identify exactly what caused the chain to fail under race conditions.
With Hopkins out of the race, it was left to Anthony West to carry the flag for Kawasaki, but the 26-year-old Australian had his own problems to contend with. From the start of the 28-lap race, West was struggling with a severe lack of rear grip that saw his Ninja ZX-RR spinning up on the gas out of every turn.
In characteristic style, West refused to be defeated by the problem, and his dogged determination saw him eventually finish in 14th position, for which he was rewarded with two valuable championship points.
It was a frustrated West that returned to the Kawasaki pit box to demand answers from his crew, who were quick to identify the cause as a problem with the set-up of his Ninja ZX-RR.
Both Kawasaki riders leave Le Mans disappointed, but determined to make amends in the next race at Mugello, which takes place in just two weeks time.
Anthony West: 13 - 14th Position
“I am not happy at all. This weekend has been a struggle, because we’ve had the same rear traction problems that we’ve experienced at every track since the start of the season. But then, in the race, the rear grip was non-existent; the bike was spinning up if I even thought about opening the throttle. I knew straight away that something was wrong, but short of coming in for a change of tyre and kissing any chance of a points scoring finish goodbye, there was nothing I could do. In the end, I just did what I could to ride round the problem, but I don’t think I’ve ever been as happy to see the chequered flag as I was today. Now I want to know what the problem was, and I want to be sure that we don’t have the same problem again.”
John Hopkins: #21 - DNF
“After practice and qualifying I really thought we could come away from Le Mans with a good result, which makes today even more frustrating. I got a pretty good start, and was then able to make up places by passing on the brakes, but there are still a number of areas where we’re losing out, on acceleration out of the turns for example, and this makes it difficult to make a pass stick. It’s no fun holding off someone like Lorenzo for a whole lap, only to see him motor past you as soon as you get onto the straight. We need to work on these areas, starting with tomorrow’s test, and we need to make some improvements if we’re to increase our competitiveness. As for the chain, I guess that was just bad luck. Now we need to find out why it failed, so we can avoid the same problem in the future. Finally, I’d like to apologise to Loris for the pass I put on him, which was a little bit hard. Sorry Loris!”
Michael Bartholemy: Kawasaki Competition Manager
“It has been a frustrating weekend for everyone, but we can’t allow our heads to drop as a result of the problems we faced today. John started well, and was closing on the battle for fifth place when his chain snapped, putting him out of the race. Obviously, we need to identify what caused the failure so that we can avoid the same problem in the future. To Anthony I’d like to apologise, because the difficulties he experienced today were due to a miscalculation on the part of the team. He showed true determination this afternoon by riding around the problem to finish the race, and for that he should be commended. Some very important lessons have been learnt this weekend, and while it may have been a painful learning process, this experience will only make us stronger as a team. Now we need to focus on Mugello, where we must realise the full potential of our riders and our Ninja ZX-RR.”
MotoGP Race Result:
1. Valentino Rossi (ITA) Fiat Yamaha 44'30.799; 2. Jorge Lorenzo (SPA) Fiat Yamaha +4.997; 3. Colin Edwards (USA) Tech 3 Yamaha +6.805; 4. Dani Pedrosa (SPA) Repsol Honda Team +10.157; 5. Chris Vermeulen (AUS) Rizla Suzuki MotoGP +21.762; 6. Andrea Dovizioso (ITA) JIR Team Scott +22.395; 7. Loris Capirossi (ITA) Rizla Suzuki MotoGP +27.806; 8. Nicky Hayden (USA) Repsol Honda Team +27.995; 9. Randy De Puniet (FRA) LCR Honda +29.334; 10. Shinya Nakano (JPN) San Carlo Honda Gresini +30.822; 14. Anthony West (AUS) Kawasaki Racing Team +1'29.307; DNF. John Hopkins (USA) Kawasaki Racing Team +12 Laps
As bad as Ant's race appeared to be, as posted above, it was accentuated by a technical glitch, he can't buy a break at the moment can he :(
It sounds like the team F..... up. An apology to Ant from the team principle, Wow.
Sorry if this has been noted already, but aren't Kawasaki still using the odd-fire "screamer" engine? It would certainly explain the lack of grip; that's why every other team has given up on it, if I remember correctly.
No, Kawasaki has only tested the "Screamer". They have not yet raced it. To my knowledge, the screamer is an even firing engine, producing more revs, correct me if I am wrong though.
btw, i think that this test has been the closest ant has been to hopkins (and the rest of the grid) since well before the season began.
signs of progress, i hope.
here here!!
Interesting article from Colin Young in "The Go" section of latest AMCN
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/f...scan0001-2.jpg
Well pleased to see someone else has recognised the detrimental effect of Ant's man......
Bartholemy seems also to recognise that riders need maybe a bit more than "just get on the bike and make it go fast". Still one of the few sports around where there a very few coaches on the ground.
Ant may need coaching, as many riders do.
However, the first target for any rider is his team mate.
I'm an Aussie and wish Ant well..... But I am disappointed.
Ant has reached the pinnacle of his chosen profession, he should also be at the top of his game performance wise.
Lets face it, this is Ant's chance and he can not afford to miss it. Has too much damage been done already?
I know Ant is one of the more popular riders for forum members. Over the years we have seen Ant race in a variety of teams under a variety of circumstances. Each time that Ant fails to meet expectations it is common for arguments to be made that "if only he had a good team" or "if only he had a good bike" or "if only he was able to test first" and now "if only he had coaching".
Is it at all possible that Ant just doesn't have what it takes ?
You do make a good point Ryan. We have seen many riders come into motogp over the years, and when they don't perform over a certain amount of races, we say " off with his head" . It pains me to say it, but, Westy needs a miracle IMO. Bayliss got chopped, and you certainly can't knock his pedigree. Edwards is only just starting to get results, and you cannot knock his past record. Westy needs to fire within the next 2 or 3 races, or, his fate will be sealed IMO. He may get a good ride in WSS, or perhaps in WSBK, but, I think his days are numbered in Motogp, unless, as I said before, he pulls a rabbit from you know where.
............... His hat?Quote:
Originally Posted by maxu05
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxu05
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach24
His........boots ??
This article might just fire Ant up...
Colin Edwards starts talks with Kawasaki
By Matthew Birt
MotoGP
23 May 2008 15:11
Kawasaki bosses will have a list of potential 2009 targets drawn up by the Catalunya MotoGP in Spain next month after it emerged Colin Edwards held talks with the Japanese factory in Le Mans.
With John Hopkins under contract for next season, Kawasaki seem certain to be chasing at least one rider for 2009 given Anthony West’sstruggles, with plans to run a third factory ZX-RR still up in the air.
Texan Edwards currently with the Tech 3 Yamaha team as James Toseland’s team-mate, held preliminary discussions with Kawasaki boss Michael Bartholemy in France last weekend.
Edwards, who scored his first podium of 2008 with third place in Le Mans, told MCN: “I’m not hiding anything and I spoke to Kawasaki for the first time in Le Mans but a lot has got to happen. I am looking at everything and seeing what it is out there. I’m fishing and they are fishing just seeing what is going on.”
Kawasaki manager Bartholemy said: “I have a list of people I am interested in. Sure we have a list but I am not going from one meeting to another meeting. I can wait a bit.
“I want to give a chance to Anthony and I would like to start in Catalunya. I want a clear idea then of who can be the candidates and then really go into negotiations from Catalunya.”
It is possible that Ant doesn't have what it takes to be at the pointy end of MotoGP. I think the thing that all us Ant fnas have wanted is to see him on competitive machinery to really prove himself one way or the other, something he hasn't really been able to do since racing GP's as he's always been racing with cut price privateer teams where he's been able to mix it with a number of high-profile factory riders. He showed last year, first in supersport with Yamaha and then as a fill in with Kawasaki in MotoGP that there is talent there but this year is crucial as to his career direction. I don't think that the start of the year has made things terminal yet if within the next couple of rounds he can start mixing it with Hopkins but improvement will have to come very shortly, within the next 2-3 rounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by fatman