I don't mind about the score, the most important fact is that both top teams have used tactics, admitting that those are necessary in a fight for the win. This ends all discussion about Citroen's moral superiority.
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I don't mind about the score, the most important fact is that both top teams have used tactics, admitting that those are necessary in a fight for the win. This ends all discussion about Citroen's moral superiority.
I hate the FIA! If they dont change the rule for next year i wont follow any gravel events!
I dont know who's the idiot that though this year running order was a good idea, but the guy should be nailed to tommorow's front runner car bumper and use as a sweeper!
Tactics are part of the game, that is why FIA has been testing with starting orders!!
Unfortunately there is no good solution for the sweeping problem, both running orders have their inherent problem...
as estimated, all 4 in 15 seconds for tomorrow!
But still, some solution should be find, because otherwise it will become total comedy. Popcorns and sweet candies will be selled to crews before finish of last stage on 2nd day during waiting for better road position :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by jonkka
I n the "good old days" it was the dust, running first could be a big advantage, except un New Zealand (obviously speaking about gravel).
It is part of rallying.
Running 2nd also let you (well let "them") see the driving lines and copy or risk a little more and so on.
It is part of the spirit of rallying!
Do you actualy think that driving to split, like it was in the past years, is not better than the comedy we see this year?Quote:
Originally Posted by jonkka
It's easy to say but much harder to find that solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by John V
now it looks like Novikov missing, PWRC is loosing the main contenders to Prokov (good for him as the fight has been at the second!!)
My dear Xavier, the driving to the splits is only one of the two major problems of reversed running order.Quote:
Originally Posted by xavier
Equally, or even more important downside is that by putting slower drivers first and suffer from the sweeping, you also make it much harder for slower (new, small or struggling) teams to make it to the top. Effectively, that makes the climb to the top much steeper, discouraging anyone from trying to join the sport.
WOW! what has happened to Henning? 3rd stage win i a row. Even Petter has picked up the pace. I guess the fight for road positions.
Isn't it better that the road sweeping affect driver ranked 10-15 rather than affecting driver that are fighting for the lead?Quote:
Originally Posted by jonkka
Fights for the 10th place are surely not as important than fights for the 1st place! Honestly what does it change for Suzuki and Subaru that they are penalized for being slow on day 1 and 2?
Relax! Tomorrow will make for great rallying.Quote:
Originally Posted by xavier
Final leg may come down to the wire. :monkeedan
A matter of opinion, obviously.Quote:
Originally Posted by xavier
In some motorsport disciplines the winners are given extra ballast to keep the field together. Ie, they are penalized for success and that's considered fair and square as it's considered to keep the interest up by preventing runaway success.
In rallying, sweeping can be considered to be a similar equalizer. Some don't like the concept (me included), but penalizing the slowest, poorest or least experienced is by far worse concept if you ask me.
What it might change for Subaru or Suzuki is that if they see that even with their best efforts their progress is hampered by conditions they cannot affect, they'll call it a day and quit the sport. In my opinion, all should be done to encourage more works teams to enter the sport and not the contrary. Powerful teams will always be there and will always win but if no new blood is introduced, sport will decay due to inbreeding.
Yes, I understand well this should be not easy. Probably solution fully correct to everybody can't be find, but at least more less. Better than nothing, I hope.Quote:
Originally Posted by jonkka
You sure have a point there. But no "2nd grade" teams got any perks from that system. The only difference may be at the amount of time they are behind, but the current system did not help them to get ahead of the other teams. So tell me how it motivates these teams?Quote:
Originally Posted by jonkka
It is far worse for the image of Rallying that drivers stop on the side of the road! How can a manufacturer commit money to that kind of farce? It is supposed to be a sport where the fastest and smartest wins on the course of a few days. Now it is who is fastest on the last 1/2 day!
What's wrong with a system where the running order would be 9-16 and then 1-8. No drive to the split and 1-2-3 drivers have about the same road conditions?
Wow... I'm amazed. Folks drove pretty fast and most of them are still in the game. Back in the good old days, only a handfull kept on going after saturday leg :D
You can say whatever you want about the starting order and tactics, one thing is for sure. It's going to be an intense final leg :up:
I still didn't understand, what did Loeb do on the last stage, his splits are fast?
Amen to that! Its been such a bore following the various discussions portraying Ford as cheats and cowards and Citroen as saints. Its a race, you do everything the rules permit to win.Quote:
Originally Posted by jonkka
Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
D.R = David Richards ??? :p :
Propably problem with the car, Loeb for sure dont play tactics ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by N
Old system was fine. It was up to driver where he ended to drive Saturday and Sunday.Quote:
Originally Posted by jonkka
Only drivers who got inherent disadvantage were championship leaders but it was only funny to see how they dealt little disadvantage for first few stages.
Latvala now happily leading. :) He didn't want to lead but obviously forgot to count Loeb's move.. Lol Yesterday he settled second ahead of Sordo. That guy can't play tactics calmly.
What Loeb is now doing with tactics is a real masterpiece. He is fooling Ford-boys. Ford drivers could have done the same as in Turkey but didn't do.
Again my Question:
Where are all the Guys who called Ford cheaters and a shame for the Sport ?
What are you say now about Loeb and Citroen ?
:up: :D :s mokin: :?: http://paradise.motorsportforum.com/...cons/spin2.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Kamikaze
It`s a revenge. Malcolm Wilson has started this, not Loeb.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamikaze
It's pitty that Baldacci crashed in the fight, but Prokop had sooo much of bad luck this year, that I hope he can keep his first place to the finish :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finni
Or maybe he was ordered to sweep the road.
I'm here :wave:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamikaze
I call citroen cheaters and shame for the sport.
Ahh but you have to remember its always OK for Loeb and Citroen to cheat but ohhhhhhh not for anyone else........what a complete joke this forum is!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamikaze
I have said fo many years that Citroen are nothing but cheats
Thank you !!!Quote:
Originally Posted by A.F.F.
I´m curios who else is so honest.......
@xsara-Fan:
In other Words you say:Quote:
Originally Posted by Xsara Fan
If Ford do it, it is cheating
If Citroen do it it is OK
Strange.....
Oh Loeb... what are you doing :( ?
I just saw the coverage of day 1 and I must say Loeb had very much luck there. He almost rolled, but didn't. The starter problem from Loeb was for sure tactics, good to see on television in the coverage, and he did it again at the end of day 2. Just as Kamikaze and Brother John said, where are all the Ford bashers now?
@ John V: I really hope too that Prokop will win the PWRC, but there is still a long way to go and he had so much bad luck so he really deserved a win. As some of you know, I support the Czech, Finnish and off course Belgian driver(s).
What is P. Solberg doing? He must retire from the sport, he is not motivated enough and he hasn't the speed anymore since years.
You Ford guys are a bunch of hypocrites.
Did you think that when Ford started using tactics that Citroen would be willing to lose the title on this? Ford forced the problem into the sport this year and now it’s 1-1 and you have tasted your own medicine.
And now we can only hope for FIA to find a solution so we don’t have to watch this tactical crap next year. I simply don’t want to waste my time for two days of good Rally to end up with this.
I dont think so MikeD what I see is Loeb lovers only seeing what they want to see and slagging Ford off but not the cheating Citroens
You must understand them, their God Loeb has done the same thing as the cheating Ford-Boys :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by ste898
Hard for them.....
I don't believe this forum is cut in two districts, Ford- and Citroen lovers. There are fans of other manufactureres and us, who aren't basicly fans of any manufacturer, or equally support them all but therefore, couldn't care a rat's *** who started the tactics or who's to blame. What I do believe is that if only FIA could find a solution to this starting order issue we could all be happier.
You are correct here and now, the current second rate teams do not get much benefit from the road order rule as it seems that Suzuki is unwilling and Subaru is unable to make technological progress (and B-teams do no development at all). But if we had a true newcomer in class of Toyota or Peugeot, the longer uphill struggle to the top in form of reversed running order might discourage them. This very argument was brought up by teams like Hyundai and Skoda at the time when we had seven works teams in WRC. Oh, those were the times...Quote:
Originally Posted by xavier
It is a problem, there is no doubt of that. But how big problem it is really? For us fans, I think that most do not like the associated game in tactics. But for casual observer and manufacturers (who are in for those casual observers, not us hardcore fans), I do not think they see much of it or even know about it at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by xavier
That's because news on papers, TV or net do mention it but do not gloat about it (at least those I've read or seen). And if casual observer doesn't know any better, he thinks it's natural part of the game. Which it in fact is because of the rules.
Those who know better or happen to stand near stop control of the final SS it is detrimental, of course. I would, as I've said already, rather see flat out driving for three days but I understand FIA's reasoning behind this rule change.
What I dont understand is why are people calling for Petter to retire?
Surely there are lots of drivers who should retire first because they're worse. Drivers like Wilson, Henning and Galli are worse, despite having an equal or better car, and recently Petter has been better than Atko as well, but no-ones calling for them to retire.
All Petter needs is a better car where there is a chance for a win - he wont win the drivers championship, but he could still be an asset for the sport, and perhaps create a great fight for third next year.
Loeb and Mikko will be top 2, with JML, Sordo, Atko and hopefully Petter close battle for third. I think next season will be great.