Max Mosley opens a can of worms.

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Originally Posted by ioan

What?
I hope you aren't trying to tell us that you don't think about sex. Or that when it happens it will cloud your judgement. :rolleyes:

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Ioan, get with the plot here. I am a bloke, so the statistic is that I think about sex every 7 seconds or something.

The difference here is that, I do not go organising, and paying for prostitutes, I am not into Bondage or any form of S&M. I can rationalise it and deal with it.

Sorry, but I respect and love not only my wife, but my family way too much to betray and cheat on them in such a way.

I am no saint, I, like the next bloke, will 'knock one out' when the urge calls for it and the wife has a headache ;) , but sick and vile behaviour is not my bag, so that is why I see Max as I do.

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

Thanks :D


My post was in many ways directed to the pathetic ways media and some institutions have tried to push him out. They were too weak, too pathetic, to attempt something in the normal situation, but once a completely irrelevant sexual thing came out (I wonder how many here, or how many of those crying about him engage in similar, if not more perverted activities in the free time), they have been like bloodhounds on him.
Make no mistake, they are not trying to push him out because of this scandal, there are much deeper reasons for it. This is only used as an excuse. Ioan earlier did something very unusual for him and actually highlighted a good reason why the big players want him out. It is all about money and him helping the lesser organizations. For me to take these organizations seriously, would require them to try to get rid of him for a reason. Like not doing his job properly.

Whilst the first time since the affair came to light when he was on TV (rally at jordan), I was somewhat amused when I saw him, then now it is time to get back to serious business.

Now, I don`t think he has been a particulary good president and I think he is in many ways responsible for the joke WRC has turned to and some of the rules he has been responsible for in F1 have quite frankly been stuff that someone with Down syndrome would see as idiotic, but he has also done some good things, especially with road safety. But the attacks on him for this sex thing have been unjustified, in my view, and I am happy that he won the vote. Let`s hope he will serve his term and then retire.
That doesn`t mean that I respect him as a person, because anyone having extramarital affairs is nothing but pure **** as a person to me.

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:up:

That's pretty similar to my views.

I would say that I found the whole Nazi orgy stuff pretty distasteful but whatever people get up to behind closed doors should be up to them as long as they don't hurt anyone (that doesn't ask for a good thrashing of course ;) )

However, it isn't behind closed doors any more. Rightly or wrongly, it's all over the Tabloids and has caused international issues. As the prime representative of the FIA, it is seen as not acceptable behavior has affected his credibility, I would argue, irrevocably.

He can no longer perform his role

The problem is as well that he is seen to have abused his position now by “fixing” the vote. I don’t know it is all about money as ioan claims but it is almost undeniably an issue. Deeper than that though is power and Max has organized the FIA in such a way as to hold a seat of power built not on solid foundations but on very shaky ones. Virtually insignificant members have as much power as the largest organizations and this has created a sham. It’s obvious that the smaller members will vote for Max when he gives them such control and equally obvious that the more powerful members are disgusted.

He no longer has the support of 90% real powerbase in the FIA

Lastly, stories are emerging with alarming regularity pertaining to dubious decisions that suggest an element of underhand dealing, questionable financial decisions, anti-competitive practices, championship fixing for material reasons and incompetence (at best) etc

All of these have been documented and to me confirm that the FIA and F1 will be best served by Max’s departure.

I accept your point about the media buy feel that it was a good excuse to get rid of this man rather than a good reason.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

It's the mental state of such people, their ability to allow their sexual pursuation cloud their judgement. (If his wife had no idea what he was up to, does that make it OK). That is what I am bleating about.

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I don't see how the fact he was involved in a bondage orgy affects his ability to do his job. His private life is his own, and he is a free man.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

It's the mental state of such people, their ability to allow their sexual pursuation cloud their judgement. (If his wife had no idea what he was up to, does that make it OK). That is what I am bleating about.

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I'm a little unclear here. Is there some behavioural norm to which we should all subscribe, then? Should anyone who uses a prostitute resign from their job because it must cloud their judgment?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I'm a little unclear here. Is there some behavioural norm to which we should all subscribe, then? Should anyone who uses a prostitute resign from their job because it must cloud their judgment?

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If you cannot be trusted by those closest to you, and who you really ought to hold most dear to you, or you care not for them, how can you be expected be trustworthy, respectful, truthful and honest in business, dealing with people who you feel nothing for....?

Behavioural norms are normally controlled by laws are they not in many circles of life?

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

My post was in many ways directed to the pathetic ways media and some institutions have tried to push him out. They were too weak, too pathetic, to attempt something in the normal situation, but once a completely irrelevant sexual thing came out (I wonder how many here, or how many of those crying about him engage in similar, if not more perverted activities in the free time), they have been like bloodhounds on him.
Make no mistake, they are not trying to push him out because of this scandal, there are much deeper reasons for it. This is only used as an excuse. Ioan earlier did something very unusual for him and actually highlighted a good reason why the big players want him out. It is all about money and him helping the lesser organizations. For me to take these organizations seriously, would require them to try to get rid of him for a reason. Like not doing his job properly.

Whilst the first time since the affair came to light when he was on TV (rally at jordan), I was somewhat amused when I saw him, then now it is time to get back to serious business.

Now, I don`t think he has been a particulary good president and I think he is in many ways responsible for the joke WRC has turned to and some of the rules he has been responsible for in F1 have quite frankly been stuff that someone with Down syndrome would see as idiotic, but he has also done some good things, especially with road safety. But the attacks on him for this sex thing have been unjustified, in my view, and I am happy that he won the vote. Let`s hope he will serve his term and then retire.

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Very good post. My view on this has altered somewhat since the affair began, because on reflection he may well have been hard done-by on the part of the News of the World, and it again raises all sorts of questions about the privacy of individuals.

However, it is a very difficult situation (not least morally) because, as Knock-on says, like it or not it has become public. I don't necessarily think this is good and fair, but this is where we are. And since it came into the public domain, I think Mosley's handling of the situation has been pretty awful. His comments towards the German car manufacturers were unacceptable (far more hypocritical, one might say, than his sexual behaviour) and I think the FIA has been made to look like a very grubby political organisation, rather than just a motoring federation. The same could often be said of many other sporting bodies, the murkier sides of whose affairs are well documented. Maybe it's time for a 'root and branch' reform when Max goes. Back to basics, anyone?

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

If you cannot be trusted by those closest to you, and who you really ought to hold most dear to you, or you care not for them, how can you be expected be trustworthy, respectful, truthful and honest in business, dealing with people who you feel nothing for....?

Behavioural norms are normally controlled by laws are they not in many circles of life?

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Ah, so you're referring more to extra-marital activities, rather than those of single people?

Personally, I think the link between behaviour in one area of your life and others is a bit tenuous.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Ah, so you're referring more to extra-marital activities, rather than those of single people?

Personally, I think the link between behaviour in one area of your life and others is a bit tenuous.

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I am just trying - without much success....... ;) - to articulate how the thought process in such individuals work.

I think we should get off individual morality before Pino chokes on his Pizza :D

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

I think we should get off individual morality before Pino chokes on his Pizza :D

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Individual morality has an awful lot to do with the state we find our country in at the moment. It is a sad but true fact that they [morals] seem to count for nothing, and not very many people seem to care. :(

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

However, it is a very difficult situation (not least morally) because, as Knock-on says, like it or not it has become public. I don't necessarily think this is good and fair, but this is where we are. And since it came into the public domain, I think Mosley's handling of the situation has been pretty awful.

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Absolutely :up: and IMHO he should resign for no other reason than that.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Individual morality has an awful lot to do with the state we find our country in at the moment. It is a sad but true fact that they [morals] seem to count for nothing, and not very many people seem to care. :(

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I don't see this as being a particular problem. Certain problems (albeit often overstated by the media, and thus inflated in the minds of the public) may exist in society now that weren't previously the case, but are strange sexual preferences at the root of our ills? I somehow doubt it.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Ioan, get with the plot here. I am a bloke, so the statistic is that I think about sex every 7 seconds or something.

The difference here is that, I do not go organising, and paying for prostitutes, I am not into Bondage or any form of S&M. I can rationalise it and deal with it.

Sorry, but I respect and love not only my wife, but my family way too much to betray and cheat on them in such a way.

I am no saint, I, like the next bloke, will 'knock one out' when the urge calls for it and the wife has a headache ;) , but sick and vile behaviour is not my bag, so that is why I see Max as I do.

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Look, I see your point, but I disagree with it.

The difference between having a wife or a girlfriend is only a piece of paper.
Going further, most of the married people cheat on their beloved wife/husband. The reasons are very different and i won't list them cause you never know who can be offended.

Point is that people go to prostitutes for different reasons, but this isn't clouding their judgement, not in their work and often not even in their relationship/marriage. The two of them have nothing to do the one with the other, and shouldn't be mixed.
Just because someone cheats on his wife because that gives him the kick he needs doesn't mean that he isn't a trustworthy person in th eother aspects of his life.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Point is that people go to prostitutes for different reasons, but this isn't clouding their judgement, not in their work and often not even in their relationship/marriage. The two of them have nothing to do the one with the other, and shouldn't be mixed.
Just because someone cheats on his wife because that gives him the kick he needs doesn't mean that he isn't a trustworthy person in th eother aspects of his life.

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:up:

If it's because they have some sort of psychological problem, I think this should provoke some degree of sympathy towards them, rather than anger, even though these situations are always awful for those involved.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Look, I see your point, but I disagree with it.

The difference between having a wife or a girlfriend is only a piece of paper.
Going further, most of the married people cheat on their beloved wife/husband. The reasons are very different and i won't list them cause you never know who can be offended.

Point is that people go to prostitutes for different reasons, but this isn't clouding their judgement, not in their work and often not even in their relationship/marriage. The two of them have nothing to do the one with the other, and shouldn't be mixed.
Just because someone cheats on his wife because that gives him the kick he needs doesn't mean that he isn't a trustworthy person in th eother aspects of his life.

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Fair play mate. I do not expect everyone to hold my, perhaps outdated and/or old fashioned, beliefs. But to go through the process of marrying someone only to cheat on the very ethic behind such a union is to me quite alien.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

:up:

If it's because they have some sort of psychological problem, I think this should provoke some degree of sympathy towards them, rather than anger, even though these situations are always awful for those involved.

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Now you are barking up my tree! The sympathy may well be genuine, but you can't say someone with such issues can differentiate how they will affect them in either business OR pleasure, can you?

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Now you are barking up my tree! The sympathy may well be genuine, but you can't say someone with such issues can differentiate how they will affect them in either business OR pleasure, can you?

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No, but likewise one can't say for sure that they will.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

No, but likewise one can't say for sure that they will.

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But the seeds of doubt are well and truly sewn now though......

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"For me it's a difficult situation because I run the Formula One Group of companies, and the teams - the manufacturers - are violently opposed to him.

"I knew he would win (the vote), there was no way he could lose. But I still don't think it's good for him, or for the FIA, to be honest. He said he wanted to finish at the end of 2007, and then the end of this year, before all this happened.

"What highlights the problem he may still face is what happened in Monaco. Prince Albert made it very clear that he did not want him on the grid, and that he would have security around him so that if Max did appear they could not be seen together."

"I've always said that Max will be the president until he dies," he added. "What many people don't understand is that he enjoys confrontation. He likes argument, these things stimulate him."

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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67985

And as much as Mosley enjoys confrontation and argument, Bernie hates this and is afraid of a confrontation with Max now that he stays.

ioan, your view of Max certainly seems to have changed :)

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Originally Posted by ioan

And as much as Mosley enjoys confrontation and argument, Bernie hates this and is afraid of a confrontation with Max now that he stays.

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What leads you to think that Bernie hates confrontation and argument? He's shown little sign of hating either in the past.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

ioan, your view of Max certainly seems to have changed :)

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Yep, I'm an open minded person.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

What leads you to think that Bernie hates confrontation and argument? He's shown little sign of hating either in the past.

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He did his best attempting to get rid of Max and of the confrontation they will have at the negotiations.
he knew it was his chance and tried to take advantage.

Most intelligent people don't like confrontations because they can lose and that wouldn't be OK, so they do their best to take them out of their way.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Yep, I'm an open minded person.

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What, in the last ten months or so, has made you realise that Max isn't in it for the money like Bernie?

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Originally Posted by ioan

Yep, I'm an open minded person.

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Strewth, don't own up to that on here...... ;)

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Originally Posted by ioan

He did his best attempting to get rid of Max and of the confrontation they will have at the negotiations.
he knew it was his chance and tried to take advantage.

Most intelligent people don't like confrontations because they can lose and that wouldn't be OK, so they do their best to take them out of their way.

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But surely such things as his confrontations with Silverstone and the BRDC indicate that he's not afraid of the odd contretemps, even some fairly vicious ones?

GOT BOREDOM?

This is yesterday’s news! Bernie already lost to Max. The Puritans have lost. All persons with so called "higher moral fiber" lost! The patriotic British racing fan lost. All was lost when Max hit McLaren up for $100,000,000.oo US.
In the words of Johnny Rambo, You "got killed in Viet Nam and didn't even know it!” (Metaphorically speaking of course) For every one of you vicariously living units, there are many, many more proactive utilitarian types that don't give a rats@ss about what happens to max in his spare time, or at work. This whole shimozzel was instigated by the Anglo-Mafia as payback for the Frog-skins McLaren got taken away from them (and rightfully so)by the FIA in the Stepney-gate affair
But wining this year is a real possibility. If the A-M doesn’t back off, the FIA will find another way for McLaren to lose all!
Kings!

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Originally Posted by ioan

Yep, I'm an open minded person.

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:dozey: Next statement will be...

Ioan finds Religion !!!

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Originally Posted by trumperZ06

:dozey: Next statement will be...

Ioan finds Religion !!!

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What's that religion?! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

But surely such things as his confrontations with Silverstone and the BRDC indicate that he's not afraid of the odd contretemps, even some fairly vicious ones?

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In those cases he's the one dictating cause he can any time say they got their GP moved to an eastern country.
But he can't win over Max, remember Indy 2005, Bernie wanted the race with a suplimentary chicane, Max said No, and No it stayed.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I'm a little unclear here. Is there some behavioural norm to which we should all subscribe, then? Should anyone who uses a prostitute resign from their job because it must cloud their judgment?

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Hell yeah!! if he's got five of them whacking his bum!! :eek: How would this person be able to sit down at his desk to do his job? :p : :D :rotflmao:

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Originally Posted by ioan

Yep, I'm an open minded person.

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I can see that - but the windscreen wiper blades need to be changed. :p :

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Originally Posted by ioan

In those cases he's the one dictating cause he can any time say they got their GP moved to an eastern country.
But he can't win over Max, remember Indy 2005, Bernie wanted the race with a suplimentary chicane, Max said No, and No it stayed.

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Doesn't that suggest that, as far as F1 is concerned, the sport is being pulled in different directions? That can't be healthy in the long term; something that BMW and Honda have recognised:

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BMW Sauber and Honda Racing believe the FIA must do something to address fears of a split within the governing body in the wake of the vote of confidence in Max Mosley earlier this week.

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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68001

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Doesn't that suggest that, as far as F1 is concerned, the sport is being pulled in different directions?

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Yeah it suggests that Bernie would do anything to ensure his money flow while Max will do what it takes to keep the correctness.
It clear that they pull in different direction. However in my view Bernie is the one pulling in the wrong direction.
Look at all the changes to the qualifying system made to ensure there is a show for the viewers in the detriment of the sport (unless you believe the qualifying format we have is better than what we used to have). He was the one pushing for this.

Excuse my naivity, but Bernie should just promote the races the FIA award. The rules and regs should also be left to the FIA to decide - really it shouldn't involve Bernie. Obviously we know that doesn't happen.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Very good post.

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I thought I`d never hear that from you :D

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I think Mosley's handling of the situation has been pretty awful. His comments towards the German car manufacturers were unacceptable

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Yeah, that was not a very intelligent comment. I have always thought of Max has an extremely intelligent and cunning guy, but he let his emotions get the better of him there. That said, I admire his guts to say what he thinks.

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Originally Posted by ioan

The difference between having a wife or a girlfriend is only a piece of paper.
Going further, most of the married people cheat on their beloved wife/husband.

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Where do you take this idiotic "most married people cheat" comment? Are you basing it on yourself? Because if you are, then remember, that not everyone has so little ethics.
Piece of paper or not, once one is in a committed relationship, not cheating is imperative.
I am shocked that someone speaks of cheating in so light manner.

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Just because someone cheats on his wife because that gives him the kick he needs doesn't mean that he isn't a trustworthy person in th eother aspects of his life.

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No, but such behaviour, in my eyes, makes that person a complete ****. I have zero respect for people who cheat on their spouses. Zero. That includes max.

I have never engaged in such behaviour and to my knowledge, never has anyone I have been dating with, but I still have very very strong views on this.

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Originally Posted by ioan

And as much as Mosley enjoys confrontation and argument, Bernie hates this and is afraid of a confrontation with Max now that he stays.

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LOL. Bernie is many things, but a coward? Please. This guy is a foot shorter than me, many decades older and probably 100 pounds lighter, but I would think twice about confronting him. And I love confrontations, much like Mosley does.

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Originally Posted by ioan

He did his best attempting to get rid of Max and of the confrontation they will have at the negotiations.
he knew it was his chance and tried to take advantage.

Most intelligent people don't like confrontations because they can lose and that wouldn't be OK, so they do their best to take them out of their way.

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I think Bernie and Max are on much friendlier terms than it might appear to us.
Richard Williams who wrote an interesting article on that.

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/20..._remain_p.html


Remember, Bernie says many things, changing his story every minute, just to get his wish.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Yeah it suggests that Bernie would do anything to ensure his money flow while Max will do what it takes to keep the correctness.

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But look at the changes to the points system, made (many said) to stop Ferrari's dominance. It was Max who pushed that through.

If people are pulling in different directions, when supposedly working for the same thing (in this case F1), the end result is damaging.

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

Where do you take this idiotic "most married people cheat" comment? Are you basing it on yourself? Because if you are, then remember, that not everyone has so little ethics.
Piece of paper or not, once one is in a committed relationship, not cheating is imperative.
I am shocked that someone speaks of cheating in so light manner.

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Take your time and search before slagging others.
You seem to live in a fairy tale where you are the king who married and lived happily ever after. :p :
Time to wake up:

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Annette Lawson, a sociologist affiliated with the Institute for Research on Women and Gender at Stanford University, said various studies suggest adultery has been increasing, with 25 to 50 percent of married women and 50 to 65 percent of married men now having at least one liaison at some time in a marriage.

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Link:http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...50C0A96F948260

So, next time do your homework before you decide to attack me using certain adjectives. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

But look at the changes to the points system, made (many said) to stop Ferrari's dominance. It was Max who pushed that through.

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Yeah sure Max changed the rules, but why? Who was losing out because the WDC was decided in July during the 2002 season?! Bernie comes to mind again.

Mind you the qualy system was also changed by Max, because only the FIA can change it, but it was in the best interest of Bernie.

The problem is that nowadays Max is less willing to accommodate Bernie and this irritated the later. I would like to know the reasons for all this happening.