Saddam Hussein Hanged

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Originally Posted by Bebee

I'm with Harsha on this one. Democracy and freedom are just hyped up words, nothing more. That's the saddest thing of all. :(

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It seems to me that you fail to appreciate democracy and freedom since you've always had it. (Just like people with lots of money don't think money particularly important.)

Democracy is not just a hyped up word. It is the possibility of citizens to choose their leaders, and hold them accountable for their actions. It's the possibility to affect the political course of your country collectively. And not just accept whatever is decided in the meeting rooms of the Party.

Freedom is also not just a hyped up word. Freedom of speech and freedom of assembly are the cornerstones of a healthy society. I bet you like being able to criticize your government when you think they're wrong. I bet the journalists in your country enjoy not being killed when they write about something uncomfortable for the ruling administration.

Democracy and freedom should not be belittled. They are values that nations crave for for years and decades.

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Originally Posted by Bebee

Personally, I don't condone what Saddam's done. However, I don't believe in capital punishment at all - regardless of what they've done (or have been accused of doing).

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What you believe in is irrelevant. Iraq has the death penalty for capital crimes.

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Originally Posted by Bebee

At least Saddam was quite "upfront" with his agenda, unlike the whole "we just need some lame excuse to invade a country, do what we want and stay put to ruin it even further".

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Yes, kudos for Saddam for not keeping it a secret why all these people died. :rolleyes:

I don't understand how you can think like that, Bebee. Yes, the invasion was a terrible mistake, but that doesn't mean that everything the West stands for is rubbish.

Two very good and reasoned posts. Thank you both for doing something that is very rarely accomplished on this forum; making me think!

Yes, Saddam was a nasty piece of whatsit and yes, he probably deserved to die.

How that happened may not be to my taste but it is the law in Iraq and in a embryonic democracy, it is understandable.

Our views and opinions are valid but just that. We have the benefit of freedom of speech to express our opinions. This is something that Iraq hasn't the benefit of exploiting.

Perhaps they just need time.

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Originally Posted by studiose

It seems to me that you fail to appreciate democracy and freedom since you've always had it. (Just like people with lots of money don't think money particularly important.)

Democracy is not just a hyped up word. It is the possibility of citizens to choose their leaders, and hold them accountable for their actions. It's the possibility to affect the political course of your country collectively. And not just accept whatever is decided in the meeting rooms of the Party.

Freedom is also not just a hyped up word. Freedom of speech and freedom of assembly are the cornerstones of a healthy society. I bet you like being able to criticize your government when you think they're wrong. I bet the journalists in your country enjoy not being killed when they write about something uncomfortable for the ruling administration.

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What I am uncomfortable with on this point is the way in which the words are now used almost as slogans, by the US government in particular. Its idea of freedom and democracy certainly isn't mine, and I believe it has tainted the very concepts.

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Originally Posted by studiose

What you believe in is irrelevant. Iraq has the death penalty for capital crimes.

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It is perfectly acceptable to express a view on this, and I don't believe that Iraq, or any other country, should have the death penalty.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

What I am uncomfortable with on this point is the way in which the words are now used almost as slogans, by the US government in particular. Its idea of freedom and democracy certainly isn't mine, and I believe it has tainted the very concepts.

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Yes, I also don't like it, although I don't see how the concepts themselves can be tainted by excessive and occasionally inappropriate reference.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

It is perfectly acceptable to express a view on this, and I don't believe that Iraq, or any other country, should have the death penalty.

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Please explain why you think Iraq should not have the death penalty.

I apologise in advance for a lengthy post.

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Originally Posted by studiose

It seems to me that you fail to appreciate democracy and freedom since you've always had it. (Just like people with lots of money don't think money particularly important.)

Democracy is not just a hyped up word. It is the possibility of citizens to choose their leaders, and hold them accountable for their actions. It's the possibility to affect the political course of your country collectively. And not just accept whatever is decided in the meeting rooms of the Party.

Freedom is also not just a hyped up word. Freedom of speech and freedom of assembly are the cornerstones of a healthy society. I bet you like being able to criticize your government when you think they're wrong. I bet the journalists in your country enjoy not being killed when they write about something uncomfortable for the ruling administration.

Democracy and freedom should not be belittled. They are values that nations crave for for years and decades.

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Believe me, I do appreciate what I have.

1. What we usually have is a choice between two equally (or sometimes one more than the other) bad candidates. Effectively, if I don't think anyone's worthy of my vote, I'd put in a blank vote - which has no effect whatsoever (unless if the whole nation blank votes, then maybe). The Simpsons episode where Kang and Kudos take over imitating the candidates in order to get elected and take over Earth seems to be the most appropriate example.

2. I never agreed with the whole "lets do what the States do just because we need to cover our arses should Asia decide to come together and give us hell." Most Australians know that we're only "tagging along" because the PM is a spineless idiot who failed high school maths, yet became Treasurer; and because we don't have much of a Defence force (or at least one which would stand up to an Asian coalition should they ever decide to invade). :rolleyes: Which really is the wrong attitude to have towards our neighbours, and nor do we (or anyone else) have the right to act as if we rule the place.

3. I would've accepted Australia's involvement in the invasion if:
a) there was credible intel to suggest to do so (mind you a insanely huge Dossier which answered nothing and arrows pointing at sand isn't credible intel to suggest the presence of WMDs);
b) actually gave a credible reason to do so (which they did not, they did it just because the States wanted it - which isn't good enough);
c) considering they've known for quite a while, and have failed to find any WMDs, they should have left - it's a waste of tax-payers money keeping them there while our health and education sectors need that money.

Now that it's quite obvious that I don't accept what they've done, the only way to change it to something our nation wants would be to somehow overthrow the Government. Considering that we'd get beaten to a pulp once we're on the grounds just because we as a nation did not agree to the stupid idea of invading Iraq, doesn't that show a double-standard of what we call "democracy" and "freedom"?

4. As for freedom of speech, you haven't heard of Jack Thomas, now have you? I would not be surprised if ASIO or the AFP decided to knock down the front of my door next week and raid my house simply because I'm a "suspected terrorist" for having such an opinion. :rolleyes: Mind you, I know lots of people who have had their houses raided by ASIO for no feasible reason!

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Originally Posted by studiose

What you believe in is irrelevant. Iraq has the death penalty for capital crimes.


Yes, kudos for Saddam for not keeping it a secret why all these people died. :rolleyes:

I don't understand how you can think like that, Bebee. Yes, the invasion was a terrible mistake, but that doesn't mean that everything the West stands for is rubbish.

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5. Fair enough, it's the law of the land. I don't agree with it but I accept that. Then again, if he was not executed, there'd be a big hissy-fit coming from the "you know who's". :rolleyes: It's a double standard for someone to not condone capital punishment, yet want particular people to be murdered by the State. The Australian Government does not condone it, yet in this case they applaud it. When it came to the Bali bombers, they applauded it. When it came to the drug smuggler in Singapore who was an Australian citizen, they portrayed the Singaporean Government as cold-blooded killers (even though it was the law of the land). Although the circumstances and crimes were different, the end-game's the same. The laws of these nations state that capital punishment is the most serious punishment for these offences, hence it is their right to carry it out. To myself, that just oozes hypocrisy.

6. The sentence in which I stated what I believe was simply a disclaimer to prevent the Goons from knocking my door down and holding us at gun-point. :rolleyes: In case if you haven't noticed around the forum before, I am a Muslim and I'm Sunni and by no means whatsoever do I accept or condone going around killing people of the other Sects. Also, I was stating my opinion, which I believe in and have a right to (well, at least according to what you consider to be "democracy" and "freedom"). Therefore, how could my beliefs be irrelevant?

7. I've noticed you've failed to quote, and possibly failed to acknowledge the sentence between the two you had quoted (the one regarding hypocrisy). Funnily enough, without doing so, you've taken my whole argument out of context.

I'm a little hazy on something... The Americans get Saddam into Iraq because they did not like Iran at that time, condone or turn a blind eye (it really means the same thing if innocent people are dying) when he carries out his agenda, and about 20 years later decide to invade his country, cause trouble to everyone, find him, arrest him, put him on trial (which to be honest is humourous considering we all knew what the final outcome would be, yet necessary) and executing him just because he was not part of their long-term plan anymore and formed a spine of his own. Really, if it were only about the 148 people who were executed without trial and the endless tantrums over the years, there's no way "the Coalition of the Willing" would have waited so long to hunt him down.

I really can't tell what's worse: being straight with what you believe and killing people unjustly in your own country (and before I get attacked, obviously I don't condone such actions); or exploiting these people's grief, country, lives and their future to use it as ammunition for your own agenda when you see fit. Both sides have the same amount of blood on their hands, hypocrisy is the only thing that separates them.

And finally, I did not state nor imply that everything the West stands for is rubbish.

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Originally Posted by studiose

Yes, I also don't like it, although I don't see how the concepts themselves can be tainted by excessive and occasionally inappropriate reference.



Please explain why you think Iraq should not have the death penalty.

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The inappropriate referencing isn't occassional. In it's almost every single speech we hear regarding Iraq. If you try counting all the speeches in which either term was not used, you would not need a second hand.

I don't believe in the death penalty because I don't see how different it is for someone to murder people, and the State executing them (which by definition, also is murder), in the name of justice and/or better morals. :confused: The fact that you can take the "high road" and "do good" by committing a huge sin (sorry for the religious reference, I just could not think of a better word) just baffles me!

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Originally Posted by Bebee

I don't believe in the death penalty because I don't see how different it is for someone to murder people, and the State executing them (which by definition, also is murder), in the name of justice and/or better morals. :confused: The fact that you can take the "high road" and "do good" by committing a huge sin (sorry for the religious reference, I just could not think of a better word) just baffles me!

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Societies penalize certain actions to discourage people from committing them, right? The severity of punishment for each individual crime is purely a question of prudence in my view - "if we have this punishment for that crime, will our society become better?"

There is no universal cosmic truth about such things, as far as I'm aware. It's not even a universal cosmic truth that killing other people is bad. Condemning killing is an individual emotional response, probably deriving from the survival instinct. "I don't want to be killed, I want to live." So, "I want to live in a society that doesn't allow people to be killed." So, "Our society should discourage people from killing by setting up a suitably severe punishment for killing."

Should that be "life in prison" or "death by hanging" is purely a matter of taste IMO.

When I said your opinion is irrelevant I meant that since you're not a citizen of Iraq, it's not your place to say what punishment there should or shouldn't be in Iraq. My opinion is equally irrelevant. It's like saying, "BDunnell shouldn't wear boxer shorts" - it might be an opinion based on what I think is good for BDunnell, but it's irrelevant since it's none of my business.

Regarding your longer post, Bebee, I don't understand much of it because I'm not so familiar with life in Australia, but can you please explain this bit:

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Now that it's quite obvious that I don't accept what they've done, the only way to change it to something our nation wants would be to somehow overthrow the Government. Considering that we'd get beaten to a pulp once we're on the grounds just because we as a nation did not agree to the stupid idea of invading Iraq, doesn't that show a double-standard of what we call "democracy" and "freedom"?

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And yes, to condemn the execution of the Australian drug mule in Singapore while condoning the execution of Saddam Hussein is hypocritical. But that's another story and a thread long ago.

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Originally Posted by Bebee

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I don't believe in the death penalty because I don't see how different it is for someone to murder people,
and the State executing them (which by definition, also is murder),
in the name of justice and/or better morals. :confused:
The fact that you can take the "high road" and "do good" by committing a huge sin
(sorry for the religious reference, I just could not think of a better word) just baffles me!

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The supporters of capital punishment say that it is a deterent ...
If a thug knows killing someone might get them a lethal injection, they might think before doing it ...
at least that is the theory ...
the sad fact is that some people are just plain evil & have no respect for life ...
they should all be killed ....... :laugh:


;)

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Originally Posted by RaceFanStan

The supporters of capital punishment say that it is a deterent ...
If a thug knows killing someone might get them a lethal injection, they might think before doing it ...
at least that is the theory ...
the sad fact is that some people are just plain evil & have no respect for life ...
they should all be killed ....... :laugh:


;)

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If anyone thought for a second he/she will be caught and punished while killing someone, he/she wouldn't do it even if the punisment was 1 year in prison instead of capital punisment. Most killings are done in the heat of a moment and premeditated murderers believe they are smart enough not to be caught so the punishment doesn't matter. The deterent theory is BS in my opinion. IMO capital punishment could even increase homicides. The killers become desperate and might kill again in order to avoid being caught. It doesn't matter if you kill just one or one thousand if the punishment (death) is the same for both crimes.