Do You Know the Real Islam?

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Originally Posted by Roamy

While I have not went and looked for the passage - My understanding is the book says "kill the infidels" Based on their definition of infidel that seems i could be one. I am not going to support or accept religion that says to kill me. Its not paranoia or scaremongering. Its a commitment.

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The Quran is not written in the same style as the Bible and Torah or other holy books, often written several centuries down the line and functioning as a narrative. The Quran was directly dictated by the prophet Muhammed and therefore context is key. He said different things at different times to suit the occasion which is to be expected.

There is indeed a passage in the Quran that says "kill the infidels whereever you may find them". The context of the speech was that it was made to rouse Muslim troops who were heavily outnumbered as they escaped from one city to go to another. Essentially if they lost then they would have been eradicated.

Once the Muslims gained power they had to deal with treating non-Muslims as minorities within their community and the passages in the Quran reflect that, setting out the rights of non-Muslims in detail including their legal and political rights. Oddly enough these passages don't attract as much interest from the likes of you.

Understanding the context takes time and requires patience as they are often complicated and require reading about the history of the events around the period the Quran was written in. Sadly both extremists and critics of the religion like you take those words at face value.

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

Is it always though?

As the late Hitchens put it - organised religion is 'violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism, tribalism, and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive toward children'.

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Nonsense.

Organised religion is also about people quietly going to churches, synagogues, mosques and temples on a regular basis, using their religion as a source of strength and as a foundation for a close-knit community, using it to guide their decisions but not pressing it on others. The number of religious people who use their faith for entirely positive reasons vastly outnumbers those who use it for destructive purposes.

It is quite impressive to read about how many scientific advances were made by religious people and lets not pretend that atheist scientists can be easily as dogmatic rejecting scientific advances purely because it threatens their domain too.

I find it quite tiring to keep reading negative comments about religion that are entirely focused on what extremists etc propose rather than on the solid faith and positive behaviour of billions who hold those faiths.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

Nonsense.

Organised religion is also about people quietly going to churches, synagogues, mosques and temples on a regular basis, using their religion as a source of strength and as a foundation for a close-knit community, using it to guide their decisions but not pressing it on others. The number of religious people who use their faith for entirely positive reasons vastly outnumbers those who use it for destructive purposes.

I find it quite tiring to keep reading negative comments about religion that are entirely focused on what extremists etc propose rather than on the solid faith and positive behaviour of billions who hold those faiths.

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If this was true the world would be a better place as a majority of the religious people I know are kind, decent people. But sadly it is simply is not the case. The minority of extremists are all too influential, not only within their own religion but to the world as a whole. And everyone has to put up with their actions.

I don't believe that people do positive things because of their religion. I think it is the 'humanist' that is in all decent people that encourages us to positive things.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

It is quite impressive to read about how many scientific advances were made by religious people and lets not pretend that atheist scientists can be easily as dogmatic rejecting scientific advances purely because it threatens their domain too.

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Do you honestly believe that an athiest scientist would reject a new discovery because it threatens what they already think?

There are many cased where religion has promoted rejection of not only science, but philosphy too. For example, some of Aristotles works were 'lost' because Christians burned or suppressed philosophy on the grounds that there could be no useful reflections on morality before the preaching of Jesus.

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

If this was true the world would be a better place as a majority of the religious people I know are kind, decent people. But sadly it is simply is not the case. The minority of extremists are all too influential, not only within their own religion but to the world as a whole. And everyone has to put up with their actions.

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Are the extremists influential because many people follow their actions or is it simply because they are who the press pick up most? Most people who are comfortable with their faith don't change their beliefs because of what some hothead has to say.

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

Do you honestly believe that an athiest scientist would reject a new discovery because it threatens what they already think?

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No offence meant but I find that an extremely naive sentiment.

Science is not and has probably never been purely about the proving/disproving of abstract concepts. Behind any new scientific development there are budgets, egos and political factors involved. This is even more true where science intersects with industry which is increasingly common.

Try looking into science in Soviet Russia where anything that contradicted the atheist Communist line was banned.

How about the suppression of evidence that linked cigarette smoking to cancer, initially demonstrated by the Nazis then by scientists elsewhere in the 1960's? There are still scientists around that try to minimise or disprove that link. Do you believe that those scientists are all religious or do you think another factor, namely massive funding budgets from tobacco companies might be an influence? How about the climate change debate?

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

There are many cased where religion has promoted rejection of not only science, but philosphy too. For example, some of Aristotles works were 'lost' because Christians burned or suppressed philosophy on the grounds that there could be no useful reflections on morality before the preaching of Jesus.

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Who preserved many of those Greek texts? The Muslims. Aren't they religious too?

If god created adam and eve 6000 years ago how can people of god explain the earliest human remains from 11,000 years ago? Crazy scientists right?
So if god created everything did he also create cancer,hiv,plagues etc?If yes then he's a mass murderer right?

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

So are you going to tell us what you believe or not?

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The thread is not about me, and if you cannot tell what I believe, beyond a devil is in the the details type set-up, you are not very perceptive.

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

As the late Hitchens put it - organised religion is 'violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism, tribalism, and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive toward children'.

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Typical response of a self-righteous person who is irrational, intolerant, allied to racism, tribalism, and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive toward children.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

And what a surprise that so much of it is so badly written. I mean this as a serious point, not as one of my occasional digs at poor standards of English. Quite telling, I think.

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Yes it tells that you put correct grammar on an internet forum over contributing anything of intelligent construct to either side of the debate.
Quite telliing really.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

The Quran is not written in the same style as the Bible and Torah or other holy books, often written several centuries down the line and functioning as a narrative. The Quran was directly dictated by the prophet Muhammed and therefore context is key. He said different things at different times to suit the occasion which is to be expected.

There is indeed a passage in the Quran that says "kill the infidels whereever you may find them". The context of the speech was that it was made to rouse Muslim troops who were heavily outnumbered as they escaped from one city to go to another. Essentially if they lost then they would have been eradicated.

Once the Muslims gained power they had to deal with treating non-Muslims as minorities within their community and the passages in the Quran reflect that, setting out the rights of non-Muslims in detail including their legal and political rights. Oddly enough these passages don't attract as much interest from the likes of you.

Understanding the context takes time and requires patience as they are often complicated and require reading about the history of the events around the period the Quran was written in. Sadly both extremists and critics of the religion like you take those words at face value.

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All I can add is :
Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time

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Originally Posted by JackSparrow

If god created adam and eve 6000 years ago how can people of god explain the earliest human remains from 11,000 years ago? Crazy scientists right?

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duh! cos god put them there deliberately to confuse us mere mortals :dozey:

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Originally Posted by JackSparrow

So if god created everything did he also create cancer,hiv,plagues etc?If yes then he's a mass murderer right?

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he moves in mysterious ways, mere mortals couldn't understand, it's god's will that their souls go to him sooner and test those left behind...

believing in gods is bliss :)