Arizona Congresswoman Wounded; Several Killed by Gunman

By the way, couldn't the thread title be changed? After all, she hasn't actually been killed. Seems a bit unsuitable.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

I'm sure if the founding fathers were here they'd tell you to shut your piehole and realise that the country is a lot different to what it was back then and that there's no need for the populace to be armed to the point where they start shooting each other.

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That is absolute BS. Have you ever read anything about the Founders, the Constitution, and the debates surrounding it's writing and ratifying, the Federalist Papers, the Anti-Federalists Papers, correspondence between the founders, etc? I seriously doubt that you have because if you had you would not have said that.

If the Founders were here today, they would be disgusted with the rights and freedoms we have allowed our government to take from us. They would be wondering why the people hadn't risen up to overthrow this oppressive government yet. To quote an original "right-wing nutter": "the tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

Please note that I am NOT advocating any sort of violent revolution, just giving you my opinion on potential views of Founders based on what I have read of them.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

That is absolute BS. Have you ever read anything about the Founders, the Constitution, and the debates surrounding it's writing and ratifying, the Federalist Papers, the Anti-Federalists Papers, correspondence between the founders, etc? I seriously doubt that you have because if you had you would not have said that.

If the Founders were here today, they would be disgusted with the rights and freedoms we have allowed our government to take from us. They would be wondering why the people hadn't risen up to overthrow this oppressive government yet. To quote an original "right-wing nutter": "the tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

Please note that I am NOT advocating any sort of violent revolution, just giving you my opinion on potential views of Founders based on what I have read of them.

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I don't doubt they'd have issues with the freedoms that have been taken away especially in the name of freedom. But I very much doubt that the USA would cease to function tomorrow if all civilians had their guns taken away and the founding fathers would be intelligent enough to realise that.

The fact that you've been ****ed out of so many of your freedoms even though people still have the right to bear arms show that guns themselves have little if nothing to do with keeping the government in check.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

That is absolute BS. Have you ever read anything about the Founders, the Constitution, and the debates surrounding it's writing and ratifying, the Federalist Papers, the Anti-Federalists Papers, correspondence between the founders, etc? I seriously doubt that you have because if you had you would not have said that.

If the Founders were here today, they would be disgusted with the rights and freedoms we have allowed our government to take from us. They would be wondering why the people hadn't risen up to overthrow this oppressive government yet. To quote an original "right-wing nutter": "the tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

Please note that I am NOT advocating any sort of violent revolution, just giving you my opinion on potential views of Founders based on what I have read of them.

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Would you, in the light of this, say that the founding fathers were right-wing?

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Originally Posted by Daniel

I don't doubt they'd have issues with the freedoms that have been taken away especially in the name of freedom. But I very much doubt that the USA would cease to function tomorrow if all civilians had their guns taken away and the founding fathers would be intelligent enough to realise that.

The fact that you've been ****ed out of so many of your freedoms even though people still have the right to bear arms show that guns themselves have little if nothing to do with keeping the government in check.

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True, but the opposite may also be true. If the citzenry did not have guns, then it would have been much easier for governments to take freedoms. And the fact that we have not used the 2nd Amendment to check the government, does not mean that that is not the express reason it was placed in the Bill of Rights. It IS there, so if you want to take away responsible people's right to own a gun, then you need to start a movement to repeal it. Good luck.

At any rate, isn't some common sense needed here? I'm sure that we can all agree that the majority of gun owners are responsible, right? We can also agree that criminals who want guns will get them, reguardless of any laws? And we all know that there are millions of guns out there, right? So what is outlawing all guns, or even making it "harder"to own a gun really going to do at this point? Maybe reduce the number of accidental deaths, but that may be easilly offset by the number of crimes that have been stopped by "good" guns? So honestly, what will "tougher" gun control laws going to REALISTICLY do?

Especially in this case, it sounds like this guy was unstable enough that he would have gotten a gun with or without a complete ban.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Would you, in the light of this, say that the founding fathers were right-wing?

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Whenever someone espouses the views of the Founders, thay are almost always called some sort of right wing nut job. Is that your question?

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Originally Posted by chuck34

True, but the opposite may also be true. If the citzenry did not have guns, then it would have been much easier for governments to take freedoms. And the fact that we have not used the 2nd Amendment to check the government, does not mean that that is not the express reason it was placed in the Bill of Rights. It IS there, so if you want to take away responsible people's right to own a gun, then you need to start a movement to repeal it. Good luck.

At any rate, isn't some common sense needed here? I'm sure that we can all agree that the majority of gun owners are responsible, right? We can also agree that criminals who want guns will get them, reguardless of any laws? And we all know that there are millions of guns out there, right? So what is outlawing all guns, or even making it "harder"to own a gun really going to do at this point? Maybe reduce the number of accidental deaths, but that may be easilly offset by the number of crimes that have been stopped by "good" guns? So honestly, what will "tougher" gun control laws going to REALISTICLY do?

Especially in this case, it sounds like this guy was unstable enough that he would have gotten a gun with or without a complete ban.

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Ah come on Chuck, take a look at Australia or the UK. Two places where people don't commonly own guns aside from hunting weapons and they're no less free than you are. If what you were saying were true then the UK would be like the UK was in "V for Vendetta" and if you've been here you'll know it's not.

The topic of gun control in the US is a thorny issue though, if guns were to be outlawed tomorrow you know various nuts would travel out to their bunkers and would probably require Iwo Jima style flushing out..... It's not a simple issue but I think people need to be encouraged to hand in their guns and I think the types of new weapons which can be sold to people should be limited to bolt action rifles.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Whenever someone espouses the views of the Founders, thay are almost always called some sort of right wing nut job. Is that your question?

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No. Quite clearly, my question is exactly as it was written.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

No. Quite clearly, my question is exactly as it was written.

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Then you are asking, were they considered right wing in their time? Well right versus left is a fluid definition. They were classic liberals, so I suppose you could consider them left wing? But, as I said left/right are fluid so it's hard to pin down. That being said, my first use of "right-wing nutters" is using todays terms to describe them. So using that sort of definition, they were right wing as I said in my last response.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

That is absolute BS. Have you ever read anything about the Founders, the Constitution, and the debates surrounding it's writing and ratifying, the Federalist Papers, the Anti-Federalists Papers, correspondence between the founders, etc? I seriously doubt that you have because if you had you would not have said that.

If the Founders were here today, they would be disgusted with the rights and freedoms we have allowed our government to take from us. They would be wondering why the people hadn't risen up to overthrow this oppressive government yet. To quote an original "right-wing nutter": "the tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

Please note that I am NOT advocating any sort of violent revolution, just giving you my opinion on potential views of Founders based on what I have read of them.

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You are not advocating violence, but you are accepting it! The philosophy that we are losing freedoms is what cause nut jobs like Jared to shoot up people. You control the government by voting. Its your fault for not being more active in your government democratically. Our founding fathers would be looking at Obama and wondering why he is not a slave. Face it, our country has evolved. Some say good, some say bad. But I always ask what freedoms have we lost to conservatives, they never can answer.