Obama shows sense of realism

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21st September 2009, 20:47
chuck34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eki

Just roll over? No, first you should ask yourself if it's all worth it and what's in there for you. What is there really for the US in the Middle East and the Muslim world that makes all this worthwhile?

As much of a distaste as it is for many, what makes it all worthwhile is oil. If the US pulls out of the region, an all too likely scenario would be that either widespread regional conflicts would erupt and/or fundamentalists would gain control of more countries. They would then be in a position to dictate oil prices to the world. And like it or not, that would send all of our economies into a tailspin that would make last year's financial crisis look tame.
21st September 2009, 20:49
BDunnell

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck34

Where's the line between what you define as paranoia, and due dilligence?

The Patriot Act is born of paranoia; the mass panic that set in during that Air Force One photoshoot was born of paranoia; measures such as not allowing people to take their own bags on to US military bases hosting open days are born of paranoia; attempts in the UK to extend the period for which terrorist suspects can be detained are born of paranoia; many of the measures aimed at improving airport security are born both of paranoia and an unwillingness to invest in sufficient infrastructure; the shooting dead of an innocent Brazilian electrician was born of paranoia; and so on, and so on.
21st September 2009, 20:52
F1boat

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck34

As much of a distaste as it is for many, what makes it all worthwhile is oil. If the US pulls out of the region, an all too likely scenario would be that either widespread regional conflicts would erupt and/or fundamentalists would gain control of more countries. They would then be in a position to dictate oil prices to the world. And like it or not, that would send all of our economies into a tailspin that would make last year's financial crisis look tame.

Another reason to develop more green technologies and cut our dependance from oil. Far better that more wars.
21st September 2009, 20:54
Eki

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck34

As much of a distaste as it is for many, what makes it all worthwhile is oil. If the US pulls out of the region, an all too likely scenario would be that either widespread regional conflicts would erupt and/or fundamentalists would gain control of more countries. They would then be in a position to dictate oil prices to the world. And like it or not, that would send all of our economies into a tailspin that would make last year's financial crisis look tame.

More likely they'd be willing to sell their oil for the market price, especially if there's enough competition. BTW, the war in Afghanistan has mainly lowered the price of opium and heroin, since the Taliban is not burning down the poppy fields anymore as much as they used to be.
21st September 2009, 20:58
chuck34

Quote:

Originally Posted by F1boat

Another reason to develop more green technologies and cut our dependance from oil. Far better that more wars.

Sure I'm all for green tech. Unfortunately, none show much promise economically. If they did they would have taken off by now. If you can develop something that will generate as much, if not more, power than oil/coal, and do it just as reliably then you will be a very rich man. But nothing currently can do that other than nuke power, and that has a stigma placed on it that has so tainted it that I doubt we will ever fully expoit it's potential.
21st September 2009, 21:00
chuck34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eki

More likely they'd be willing to sell their oil for the market price, especially if there's enough competition. BTW, the war in Afghanistan has mainly lowered the price of opium and heroin, since the Taliban is not burning down the poppy fields anymore as much as they used to be.

That's just it, they will pretty much control the market, and as such will be able to dictate prices.

Your heroin example is perfect. There is more supply of poppy now because no one is really controling it effectively. Therefore the laws of supply and demand work. But if fundamentalists control the oil fields, they will constrict supply, and drive up the price.
21st September 2009, 21:16
Eki

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck34

Sure I'm all for green tech. Unfortunately, none show much promise economically. If they did they would have taken off by now. If you can develop something that will generate as much, if not more, power than oil/coal, and do it just as reliably then you will be a very rich man. But nothing currently can do that other than nuke power, and that has a stigma placed on it that has so tainted it that I doubt we will ever fully expoit it's potential.

New technology cannot gather critical mass as long as old technology is much cheaper. But if it gets the critical mass, it'll get much cheaper and economically viable. Just look at how expensive digital electronics was 20 or 30 years ago and how cheap it is now.
21st September 2009, 21:21
chuck34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eki

New technology cannot gather critical mass as long as old technology is much cheaper. But if it gets the critical mass, it'll get much cheaper and economically viable. Just look at how expensive digital electronics was 20 or 30 years ago and how cheap it is now.

Ok, but how long have we been working on green tech now? At least since the gas embargos back in the 70's on one level or another.

Like I said, I'm all for new green tech. It's just that it has yet to demonstrate the reliability or economic bennifit. The day I see something that looks promising is the day I jump on board with it.
21st September 2009, 21:22
BDunnell

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck34

But nothing currently can do that other than nuke power, and that has a stigma placed on it that has so tainted it that I doubt we will ever fully expoit it's potential.

And that, I believe, is a great shame. It is ridiculous that so many in the West — holding varied political views, too — base a large part of their opinion of nuclear power on an accident that occurred in the Soviet Union almost 25 years ago, involving technology and safety measures that bear no relation to those in place in the West today. Such are irrational fears.
21st September 2009, 21:24
A.F.F.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

As for Dex's feeling you understand the Russians better than those of us in the US and Canada, maybe on some level you do. The point is, from a far, the Russians had about a 10 year window where they took on true democratic ideals and tried them on for size. Then Putin came along...and people who question him end up dead. People who assumed the mantle of a free and open press. Any time you show me a leader who will manipulate and oppress free speech, I show you a tyrant in the making, and those people, I would be REAL careful about trusting...

I think you understand this issue far better than most Finns. Or let's say better than our 200 members of parlament :up:

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