Webber--dirty driver and hypocrite

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Originally Posted by Ent

I think that's the point some people here are missing. It was a brilliant overtaking move by Alonso. He has a history of it. Didn't he overtake someone on the outside of 130R at Suzuka? He's a great driver to watch when he goes for the overtaking in those half gaps most drivers back away from. It also shows the faith the top drivers have in the driver they are overtaking, to see them coming from an unexpected place, as was the case here. Big thumbs up to Alonso.

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Big thumbs up to Alonso, indeed!

Don't think anyone has criticized him here, though, so I don't really get what your point is here.

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Originally Posted by studiose

So are you saying that because Webber wasn't the first one to do it, it's ok?

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I could see why people would've had a beef with what Senna did in the 80's, because many liked how F1 was before Senna. Hell, some found driving defensively detestible in the 1930's, as it held up faster cars. See the 1937 Italian Grand Prix - Rosemeyer didn't like Caracciola driving in such a way as to make passing difficult.

I think it's okay, yes. Webber cut it fine, and I am sure he didn't intend for Alonso to get a wheel on the grass.

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Originally Posted by Gibbsy

I cant believe people are complaining about blocking.

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Neither can I...I though we wanted racing people. This is racing!!!

I think the Senna one was strange at the time because it was so rare.

We had a lot of blocking from Schumy when he would swerve left and right with gay abandon. Then the FIA was forced to bring in the infamouse "1 change of direction" rule which is what Webber did.

I cannot see anything wrong with the move and think both drivers were committed.

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Originally Posted by studiose

Big thumbs up to Alonso, indeed!

Don't think anyone has criticized him here, though, so I don't really get what your point is here.

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The point being that lap after lap, cars who have another car right on their tail on the main straight move to the right to defend their line. In that respect this case was no different. Normally the following car would then try to dart down the outside and try and take the position around the outside of the first corner. The only thing that made this move different was Alonso didn't do the expect thing and drove sheer around the inside of Webber, using all of the track and a little more.

The reason why the move looked so spectacular was due to Alonso's bravery and great driving. People seem so hung up on "blocking" that never happened, that they are undervaluing Alonso's role in all of this.

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Originally Posted by Ent

The point being that lap after lap, cars who have another car right on their tail on the main straight move to the right to defend their line. In that respect this case was no different. Normally the following car would then try to dart down the outside and try and take the position around the outside of the first corner. The only thing that made this move different was Alonso didn't do the expect thing and drove sheer around the inside of Webber, using all of the track and a little more.

The reason why the move looked so spectacular was due to Alonso's bravery and great driving. People seem so hung up on "blocking" that never happened, that they are undervaluing Alonso's role in all of this.

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The way I see it is this.

If you divide the entry to the first corner into three racing lines - the outside, the middle and the inside - then I would have had no problem whatsoever if Webber had moved to the middle, leaving Alonso a choice of either outside or inside. If you go back to your own photo, you see that this is what initially happens. Webber moves to the middle, and Alonso - perhaps indeed, as you suggest, to Webber's surprise - chose the inside line, not the outside. If they had come like this into the first corner - side by side -, Webber would still have had an advantage, because the inside line is dirty and Alonso would have had to brake earlier anyway, because the corner would have been way tighter for him.

What happened instead?

Webber moved from the middle to the inside, pushing Alonso - who was alongside - to the grass. Why? Because Webber realized that they were not going to come side by side to the corner. Alonso would have been significantly ahead. So his only choice, at that point, to keep position was to push him out - get him to lift off. And that's what he tried. And this, in my opinion, is anything but fair racing. It's bullying. "Lift off or else."

Well, Alonso didn't lift, and snaked through anyway. Super! And Webber then got the corner anyway, by outbraking Alonso, which was also super.

But that doesn't change my opinion that Webber's initial move was unfair, unsporting.

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Originally Posted by studiose

The way I see it is this.

If you divide the entry to the first corner into three racing lines - the outside, the middle and the inside - then I would have had no problem whatsoever if Webber had moved to the middle, leaving Alonso a choice of either outside or inside. If you go back to your own photo, you see that this is what initially happens. Webber moves to the middle, and Alonso - perhaps indeed, as you suggest, to Webber's surprise - chose the inside line, not the outside. If they had come like this into the first corner - side by side -, Webber would still have had an advantage, because the inside line is dirty and Alonso would have had to brake earlier anyway, because the corner would have been way tighter for him.

What happened instead?

Webber moved from the middle to the inside, pushing Alonso - who was alongside - to the grass. Why? Because Webber realized that they were not going to come side by side to the corner. Alonso would have been significantly ahead. So his only choice, at that point, to keep position was to push him out - get him to lift off. And that's what he tried. And this, in my opinion, is anything but fair racing. It's bullying. "Lift off or else."

Well, Alonso didn't lift, and snaked through anyway. Super! And Webber then got the corner anyway, by outbraking Alonso, which was also super.

But that doesn't change my opinion that Webber's initial move was unfair, unsporting.

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Do you agree it was exciting, and F1 needs more of it.

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Originally Posted by big_sw2000

Do you agree it was exciting, and F1 needs more of it.

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Haven't I made it clear that I really dislike that sort of thing? :) No, I don't think F1 needs that. Exciting in a perverse way though it may be. :)

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Originally Posted by studiose

Haven't I made it clear that I really dislike that sort of thing? :) No, I don't think F1 needs that. Exciting in a perverse way though it may be. :)

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If I am honest, I think you are digging a hole....

....and it keeps getting bigger.

It was a case of Webber moving to protect his position. Alonso had committed to take the pit side of the track, and was darn sure he was going to make it stick.

I think this is a clear case of no case to answer.

There were only inches to spare , but Mark left him just enough room .

Fernando was committed , knowing Mark would relent if he was along side .

Classic gun fight .

Inches farther , and Mark would have been a real dick , as Fernando would have been even farther onto the grass .
Being on the grass was Fernando's idea , obvious from the screen shot of Fernando there gardening , because there is enough room to have his wheels on the white line , with Mark where he was .
He was very close to the dangerous line , but within the limits of how hard you can expect a competitor to race .

Some have given props to Alonso for being brave , and well deserved , but Mark should also be given his , because he raced hard but fair .
They both had to trust each other completely , and expect each other to race to the limit , but not over .

All in all , a beautiful pass , hard won .