Ferrari/McLaren Espionage Story [merged]

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

They should round up all the McLaren cars, and burn them under a cross by men wearing pointed head caps and hoods. That'll teach anyone who wants to engage in espionage in the future to beat the red cars.

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with Lewboy on top of the pyre i spose!!!! :) ha ha ha ha ha

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Originally Posted by AJP

thanks for that Mr. Positive.... ;)

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ha ha ha ....its a bit difficult to be upbeat about this now!!!!!.....the poison pixie and madmax must be polishing the office table already and looking forward to giving ronnyboy something to really start crying about!!!!!.....this is gonna hurt ron, but bend over and take it like a man!!!!!

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Originally Posted by andreag

Link, please :rolleyes:

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no problem with cheating except getting caught!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Looks like Mclaren is going to tighten their own noose. They are saying no one else was told about the documents at Mclaren, even though Coughlen already has a sword statement saying that he did. They also have the problem about asking about rules clarifications for some things that seemed to be related to Ferrari design specs.

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Originally Posted by Racehound

no problem with cheating except getting caught!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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It isn't as simple as that, You will never be able to do anything to the caught person if he has power more than you, better sleeping

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Originally Posted by leopardsleeping

It isn't as simple as that, You will never be able to do anything to the caught person if he has power more than you, better sleeping

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I know this applies to Indonesia, Burma, and sometimes even Thailand, but in Europe, this is highly unlikely, especially when somebody steals from Ferrari. Not many have greater power than Ferrari in F1.

Not that makes any difference in my mind. The truth will eventually come out when the beans are spilt.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

I know this applies to Indonesia, Burma, and sometimes even Thailand

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:D :D
Sometimes it doesn't apply as it looks, the favorite winner of Asian Cup was fallen off during elimination stage ;)

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

this is highly unlikely, especially when somebody steals from Ferrari. Not many have greater power than Ferrari in F1.

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Didn't you ever think this is only coincidence? McLaren has ever scored the fastest car in F1 before, to be the fastest again (at least approaching the fastest) shouldn't need change dramatically. Without this case, they have what they need to re-gain the power.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Either theory has a similar level of credibility until we know more.

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Yeah, a 780 page document (and 2 copies or more to boot) vs. a lawyer's statement - I see those as equally credible...RIGHT!!!

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Originally Posted by Racehound

and not just any old McLaren employee!!!!....only their chief designer no less!!!!!!.........

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Well, one of five chief engineers actually...and the one not in charge of anything ;)

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Originally Posted by wmcot

Yeah, a 780 page document (and 2 copies or more to boot) vs. a lawyer's statement - I see those as equally credible...RIGHT!!!

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My point is that none of us know the full facts, and until we do we can all put forward credible or fanciful theories.

McLaren have repeatedly said that: "...no Ferrari materials or data are or have ever been in the possession of any McLaren employee other than the individual sued by Ferrari." Yet there are some who ignore those statements while accepting others that implicate the team.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Trying to claim that Ferrari have stitched them up, based solely on Nigel Stepney's lawyers comments (well, he would say that, wouldn't he?), is not equal to Mclaren having to go to Paris next week to explain why documents relating to the F2007 were in the possession of their chief designer.

One is fact, the other speculation.......speculation most likely brought about by a case of self-denial and an unwillingness to accept that those who make a song and dance about appearing to be whiter than white might just be as grimey as the rest of us.

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I said earlier that Stepney's comments may reflect the situation he's now in. Then again, they may equally reflect the truth of this matter. Someone sent Ferrari documents to a McLaren employee. Who that was, and what was done with those documents remains to be established.

Most of what we post here is speculation, so it's not a case of being unwilling to accept anything because very little has been established as fact. That doesn't prevent anyone from prejudging the situation, in fact it positively encourages conspiracy theories.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Telling Ferrari fans that they aren't able to accept the reality was nice and easy! Now take a look at yourselves! :p :

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Judge the case on what we know, not what some want to see.

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Originally Posted by Hendersen

Looks like Mclaren is going to tighten their own noose. They are saying no one else was told about the documents at Mclaren, even though Coughlen already has a sword statement saying that he did. They also have the problem about asking about rules clarifications for some things that seemed to be related to Ferrari design specs.

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Really? I though McLaren went to Charlie to ask if they can run a system on their car that would pass the FIA load test, but could still give an aero benefit at higher speed.

At no point did McLaren say they were unhappy with Ferrari's solution.

There is a different way to reach the same objective........

it's a great conspiracy theory, isnt it?

Nigel thinks of defecting and Ferrari want to discredit him because of what he knows and the bodies he's helped bury.

soooooo, they sign up a "supposed" mate of his, Mike, to stitch him up. Mike and Nigel make some moves to talk with Honda and Mike sends Nigel plans for the McLaren but Nigel refuses to send the Ferrari plans because he's worried about getting caught. So, Ferrari gets the complete plans to Mike who tries to implicate others in McLaren to no effect.

Ferrari think they have enough now so pull the plug when they know Nigel is away and start the media circus. Mike provides an afadavit implicating Nigel and McLaren and McLarens title chances are derailed. after a couple of years working in a periferal Ferrari role at Red Bull, Mike comes in as Tech Director of Ferrari.

result is that McLaren lose the championships, sponsors and reputation. Ron is forced to resign and Ferrari have all of McLarens pland for next years car with no suspicion whatsoever.

game, set and match.

OK, its pretty far fetched but if it was obvious, then others would have tried it. an Agent Provocater is nothing new.

I will stress that this is just a bit of fun but I only submitted it to illustrate that there are always many options and possibilities with these cases and its very rarely black and white.

Result,

We seem to be going round in circles. Blessed are they who run around in circles, for they shall become Big Wheels.

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Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

it's a great conspiracy theory, isnt it?

Nigel thinks of defecting and Ferrari want to discredit him because of what he knows and the bodies he's helped bury.

soooooo, they sign up a "supposed" mate of his, Mike, to stitch him up. Mike and Nigel make some moves to talk with Honda and Mike sends Nigel plans for the McLaren but Nigel refuses to send the Ferrari plans because he's worried about getting caught. So, Ferrari gets the complete plans to Mike who tries to implicate others in McLaren to no effect.

Ferrari think they have enough now so pull the plug when they know Nigel is away and start the media circus. Mike provides an afadavit implicating Nigel and McLaren and McLarens title chances are derailed. after a couple of years working in a periferal Ferrari role at Red Bull, Mike comes in as Tech Director of Ferrari.

result is that McLaren lose the championships, sponsors and reputation. Ron is forced to resign and Ferrari have all of McLarens pland for next years car with no suspicion whatsoever.

game, set and match.

OK, its pretty far fetched but if it was obvious, then others would have tried it. an Agent Provocater is nothing new.

I will stress that this is just a bit of fun but I only submitted it to illustrate that there are always many options and possibilities with these cases and its very rarely black and white.

Result,

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You forgot the very important part that Elvis played in all this.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

You forgot the very important part that Elvis played in all this.

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elvis was the mastermind that came up with the plan. ;)

http://motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=261554&FS=F1

Pretty catagoric to the people writing off McLaren as a bunch of cheats. It looks like they will defend their reputation and their reputation stands on this statement.

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Woking, United Kingdom, 16th July 2007: McLaren is concerned that erroneous speculation has arisen from inaccurate and misleading reference to the contents of confidential legal papers filed at court in response to Ferrari's UK action to recover its intellectual property. This is unfortunate and is prejudicial to a fair interpretation of these matters.
McLaren can confirm from its own investigation that no Ferrari materials or data are or have ever been in the possession of any McLaren employee other than the individual sued by Ferrari. The fact that he held at his home unsolicited materials from Ferrari was not known to any other member of the team prior to the 3rd July 2007.
Furthermore, McLaren has categorically established that no Ferrari information has at any stage been used to develop its car.
McLaren looks forward to having the opportunity to present the complete and accurate picture of events in the appropriate forum, that is before the FIA World Motor Sport Council in Paris on 26th July 2007.
-credit: mclaren

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if this is accurate, then all the doomsayers had better get some throut lozengers in because they are going to choke on this and it'll really stick in their craw :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

http://motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=261554&FS=F1

Pretty catagoric to the people writing off McLaren as a bunch of cheats. It looks like they will defend their reputation and their reputation stands on this statement.



if this is accurate, then all the doomsayers had better get some throut lozengers in because they are going to choke on this and it'll really stick in their craw :laugh:

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The doomsayers in this forum will suddenly develop rapid loss of memory, and forget what they have posted here, mark my words.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

There is one hole in your plot : if McLaren were to have used the plans, then sure as hell Trudy wouldn't have gone tyo have them copied at the local - they would have copied them at McLaren, wouldn't they?

We can if and surmise all we want, but all the suggestions/hypotheses so far are no more plausible than my Elvis theory.

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yes!!!!!!!!....what the hell was SHE doing trying to copy these plans/data????......and apparently in a photocopying high street shop????!!!!!! it says these documents/data are stored on 2 computer discs!!!1......then what was she trying to photocopy in a public place rather than in private on a pc???????, away from any prying eyes of some nobody working for 3 quid an hour at the local printers!!!....coughlan must have asked her to do him a favour while she was out getting the cat food and paying the gas bill!!!!!!!......what a bunch of idiots gettin caught with such dangerous information!!!!!......if McLaren do get expelled from this years championship, i wonder if they will the sue coughlan for loss of earnings/sponsorship et al.....i hear the faint sound of slopping out and keys rattling along the landings again!!!!! :( ..........now , where has Elvis gone to?????

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Originally Posted by andreag

So we're not in Kansas anymore?

Didn't you realize the emoticon at the end of my phrase asking for a link?

I realize of yours at the end of your phrase about being in the toilet for so long, and then I didn't took it literally.

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Woah andreag, just poking fun at you. Dont take things so seriously ;) And yes, I understand your post.

As for a link, there are many to be found. Think Senna vs Prost, Benneton in the 90's, Schumacher, Williams and Toyota with their brakes etc etc are just a few involved with "cheating". Everyone does it ;)

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Originally Posted by janneppi

Well, one of five chief engineers actually...and the one not in charge of anything ;)

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EXCEPT A COMPLETE DOSSIER ON HOW TO MANUFACTURE AND TEST A 2007 F1 FERARRI MOTOR CAR!!!!!!.......if this all goes wrong then it looks like he might have been in charge of McLarens WHOLE season!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

http://motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=261554&FS=F1

Pretty catagoric to the people writing off McLaren as a bunch of cheats. It looks like they will defend their reputation and their reputation stands on this statement.



if this is accurate, then all the doomsayers had better get some throut lozengers in because they are going to choke on this and it'll really stick in their craw :laugh:

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I'm not one of the people throwing accusations at Mclaren , yet, but if one of their employees under contract to work for them took illegal and stolen documents into their factory, they are also responsible for the actions of their employee, arent they. Where's a lawyer on this forum to answer that one :?:

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Originally Posted by tamburello

The big problem here is this.....

If a team has no responsibility for the actions of it's employees, then the teams can start to cheat in every aspect of design knowing they can just scapegoat some unfortunate mechanic, engineer or programmer and get away with it.

Because if the FIA let this current situation go un-addressed, this is what you'll here next year....

"We didn't know our ECU's had been tampered with to let us rev to 20,000....that must have been John"

and

"We didn't know the car was 50 kilos underweight, Dave's responsible for weighing it"

Unfortunately for Mclaren, they are probably going to be the ones that the FIA use as an example....but what other choice does the FIA have?

At the end of the day, the employer is responsible for the actions of it's employees....and that is a legal argument that even Ron is going to come up against.

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tell that to williams.....who still proclaims his and his teams "innocence"........!!!!!!! :(

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

I'm not one of the people throwing accusations at Mclaren , yet, but if one of their employees under contract to work for them took illegal and stolen documents into their factory, they are also responsible for the actions of their employee, arent they. Where's a lawyer on this forum to answer that one :?:

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McLaren state that nobody at McLaren was aware of these documents and if Mike and "others" were planning a moonlit flit to Honda, it could well be the case that McLaren are in the same boat as Ferrari and all their plans are floating about somewhere?

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Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

McLaren state that nobody at McLaren was aware of these documents and if Mike and "others" were planning a moonlit flit to Honda, it could well be the case that McLaren are in the same boat as Ferrari and all their plans are floating about somewhere?

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Could be :up: But they are still employees of corporations and no-one knows who else has got/seen the documents. Its only natural that people like Ron Dennis will deny involvement in this saga, but remember that murderers also deny thier actions until proven in a court of law. Personally I think Ron and Mclaren are innocent, however, they still need to answer for their employees actions. This whole situation is a bad reflection on the type of people that Mclaren and Ferrari employ and another pothole in the road for F1's image :(

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Originally Posted by Racehound

EXCEPT A COMPLETE DOSSIER ON HOW TO MANUFACTURE AND TEST A 2007 F1 FERARRI MOTOR CAR!!!!!!.......if this all goes wrong then it looks like he might have been in charge of McLarens WHOLE season!!!!!!!!

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Two guys a in charge of their own cars, one apparently Ferrari's, what do the other two work on, Renaults and BMW's? ;)
If that's the case, shouldnt teams outsource all of their work to McLaren. :p :

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Originally Posted by janneppi

Well, one of five chief engineers actually...and the one not in charge of anything ;)

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He is suspended so it's obvious he is in charge of nothing! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

Could be :up: But they are still employees of corporations and no-one knows who else has got/seen the documents. Its only natural that people like Ron Dennis will deny involvement in this saga, but remember that murderers also deny thier actions until proven in a court of law. Personally I think Ron and Mclaren are innocent, however, they still need to answer for their employees actions. This whole situation is a bad reflection on the type of people that Mclaren and Ferrari employ and another pothole in the road for F1's image :(

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I dont think you can blame the companies if an employee commits a crime completely unsolicited by the company. BUT, lets say they are for the sake of arguement and look at the allergations

what difference is there between theft and receiving stolen goods.

A Ferrari employee was guilty of theft so his employers should be punished even though they are the victims of this crime? I dont think so, do you?

A McLaren employee receives stolen plans without the knowledge of his employers and as soon as they are made aware of this, they take appropiate action, suspend the employee pending investigation and co-operate fully with that investigation.

just what are they guilty of again and lets not forget that the probable intention was not to benefit McLaren but to take this intellectual property to a competitor.

as for these two alledged criminals, I am sure that they never disclosed that they would defraud their employees. in fact, Im sure that their respective employers had clauses in their contract making it clear that no unauthorised matter should be sold, lent, copied or used in an matter as to prove predicidual to the employer.

lets not forget that these two employees are very respected and leading figures at the pinnacle of motor sport of previously unimpeachable character.

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Originally Posted by ioan

He is suspended so it's obvious he is in charge of nothing! :rolleyes:

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You mean you actually believe Dennis has suspended him, you're getting soft old man. :p :

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Originally Posted by janneppi

You mean you actually believe Dennis has suspended him, you're getting soft old man. :p :

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:laugh: very good :laugh:

i refute the allegations, and i refute the alligator ;)

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Originally Posted by janneppi

You mean you actually believe Dennis has suspended him, you're getting soft old man. :p :

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At least I'm not talking bull$hit. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by ioan

At least I'm not talking bull$hit. :rolleyes:

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who is? surely not an insult or slanderous accusation there ioan :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

who is? surely not an insult or slanderous accusation there ioan :laugh:

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You can't stop yourself from mixing into others conversation?!

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Originally Posted by ioan

At least I'm not talking bull$hit. :rolleyes:

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I do hope you're not referring to me?
Or has lighthearted discussion suddenly become forbidden?

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Originally Posted by ioan

You can't stop yourself from mixing into others conversation?!

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Take a look at post your post #464, now are you a pot or a kettle? :p :

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Originally Posted by janneppi

I do hope you're not referring to me?
Or has lighthearted discussion suddenly become forbidden?

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My heart is anything but light these days.

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Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

A McLaren employee receives stolen plans without the knowledge of his employers and as soon as they are made aware of this, they take appropiate action, suspend the employee pending investigation and co-operate fully with that investigation.

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Why did it take them from March/April until July to take "appropriate" action????? That's my question. Coughlan admits showing the documents to several McLaren employees. Even if they didn't want anything to do with this, why did it take several months to suspend him and "cooperate fully" when they should have blown the whistle on him immediately if they wished to maintain their "integrity."

It is the delay in action that casts serious doubts on McLaren's statements of innocence and integrity. :(

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Originally Posted by wmcot

Why did it take them from March/April until July to take "appropriate" action????? That's my question. Coughlan admits showing the documents to several McLaren employees. Even if they didn't want anything to do with this, why did it take several months to suspend him and "cooperate fully" when they should have blown the whistle on him immediately if they wished to maintain their "integrity."

It is the delay in action that casts serious doubts on McLaren's statements of innocence and integrity. :(

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I'd like to know who Coughlan showed the plans to, when he showed the plans to them and in what context, and why they clammed up. This will be very interesting. Did Coughlan want the McLaren employees to jump ship with him to Honda? or some other team?

So many questions, and so few answers.

Unless there is a proverbial "smoking gun" in the Coughlan statement then I very much doubt that McLaren will be punished in any way. Even if there is a smoking gun in the statement McLaren will probably still escape serious punishment as it will come down to Coughlan's word against McLaren's.

I think the only effect this whole saga will have is to possibly change some peoples opinion of McLaren. I've hated McLaren for nearly 20 years so this hasn't changed my opinion of them at all. :D

I don't want to see McLaren excluded from the championship for two reasons. Firstly, I don't think that they have actually benefitted from Coughlan's possesion of the Ferrari documents and secondly, it would render Ferrari's inevitable championships somewhat hollow and leave a big question mark over Raikkonen's or Massa's first, and perhaps only, championship.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

[I]f one of [McLaren's] employees under contract to work for them took illegal and stolen documents into their factory, they are also responsible for the actions of their employee, arent they. Where's a lawyer on this forum to answer that one :?:

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You refer, 555, to the doctrine of "respondeat superior" which holds that in certain cases the boss must answer for the screw-ups of his employee. But the doctrine is inapplicable where, as in this case, the employee is acting outside the legitimate scope of his authority. Robers v. Town of Black Mountain, 224 N.C. 119.

555.

Time devoted to:

Reading your post: 00:01
Arguing with my wife (also a lawyer) about the doctrine of "respondeat superior": 02:30
Researching reference to the Black Mountain case: 00:10
Replying to your post: 0:03

Total time devoted to this matter: 2hrs 44mins, call it 2:30 at $400/hr.

Please remit the sum of $1,000 by return.

(Please note that, because you are a long-standing client, I have charged only for my own time spent conferring with my wife.)

Thanking you,

Gannex