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Could the 2027 WRC end up like 1981. Rothmans turning up with a determined driver (Vatanen), a proven car (the Escort Mk2) and sufficient sponsorship to do enough rounds.
What could 2027 be like? Determined driver (with a private non-manufacturer sponsor) turns up with a proven Rally2 and takes enough points to win the driver's title?
2027 - Hyundai pulls out, Toyota drivers with less powerful cars at the front lose time at gravel rallies, which lets others through on the leaderboard.
what u mean? lots of rally2/3/4 car manufacturers don't do wrc, they just sell to clients.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
True lower down, but a manuf couldn't homologate a World Rally Car or Rally1 without also entering the manufs championship. That got some manufs doing a season or two just for the paper stamp, Skoda, Suzuki, Mini...Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
WRC+ 2017- on took it further; privateers could only enter their own purchases through the corresponding manuf doing a full season.
When the car is called 'WRC2027' why wouldn't they protect the championship in a similar way? Say to a manuf, if they want to profit from the industry, they have to pay the dues.
i know, and that's why i said that, 'cause the business is not in the top tier championship now...Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
manufacturers that only want a client service will stay with a "r5/rally2" business model, won't do wrc (aka top tier championship) and will sell car that can profit even with a cost cap of 350/400k. manufactures with aim in the championship (toyota, some tuners, maybe hiunday, m-sport?) will develop wrc27 car for the championship using more money than the cost cap, and probably not sell much of that (can a tuner other than m-sport support a 100+ piece business for selling? doubt it). toyota and hiunday will stay with current model, "rally2" for sale, "wrc" for top championship.
If the FIA want to shoot themselves in the foot then that is a good set up, but there's a pickle in your point. I get what you're saying about business models but Rally2 is going, to be replaced by 'WRC2027'. Nobody is buying Toyota and Hyundai Rally2s in 2033, because Rally2 won't exist. Where do those customers take their business? It's into this ultimately universal affordable car that'll go into all the championships. Possibly too, the same homologation could cover detunings and two wheel drives to replace Rallys3/4/5. Who knows, no reason why not. It's also possible to have a higher tuned WRC2027+ for WRC too, however it's not important now.
What is important, is they haven't got either the willing manufacturers or willing promoter who choose to go around the world doing 14 rounds; thus we're in this thread talking about a necessary new car for WRC.
Give them a reward for doing the WRC championship: homologation for a universal affordable rally car. Also give them a device to secure proper, business-like, investment from proper business-like funding sources: profit through that homologation. What flaw am I not seeing?
Do you just sit back and hope somebody will want to do WRC, then sit back again and hope that they can get 'sponsors' to pay for it? Meanwhile, allowing businesses to profit off your industry, selling thousands of cars and drives, snatching customers from those willing teams doing your WRC championship? OK.
i see just this flaw:Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
why manufacturers like skoda, stellantis, renault, even m-sport would give up a "flat" market like rally2 to chase the biggest manu (toyota) in competition?
the reason r5/rally2 are so successfull is because there's no manus championship there. they're not top notch competition, and brand can sell a lot -or enough- just being in the mix. it's ok to deliver a product that can win some race to clients, whitout having an official team to prove it winning championships. it just works. even old m-sport fiesta is still in the mix in erc... rally3 is the same. rally4 as well.
add a committed manu (aka toyota) for the overall win, and this levelled field will blow up. they will use all the money they have anyway. if it's not the car itself, will be test or development or communication or engineers -whatever, they ll use the money to win-. tuners like m-sport will lag behind just as now, and the privateers that now share the car market will move toward the best car and leave the others behind.
when skoda was offical team in wrc2 they dominated the market, and fabia is still the best selling car years after. yaris is rising because is made by the top manufacturer, i20 is nowhere near in term of numbers. m-sport and stellantis faded in numbers. just look at the entries everywhere.
as for top tier, i don't think a cost cap will erase this money difference. it will make it easier to enter, but will not level the field. and if you change the regulation focus from selling to winning, the market can collapse, as selling will not be that much of a reward as u think in the top tier.
i see more a top tier for officials with 3/4 manus or tuners and a second tier of client manufacturers. if u force the client one to compete on top, i fear u may lose some (skoda - reanult) on marketing/pr roi as bad results publicity will be worse than losing the client sales.
They don't have to give up any markets. They just have to contribute something by turning up to WRC. They don't have to win or beat TGR to get anything, I don't propose anything conditional on results. So they could even turn that into a marketable opportunity, sending in some willing pay drivers who pootle round as has always been the case. Might even attract some sponsorship! However, you're right, winning a WRC rally or championship is a good way to flog rally cars, so there's this incentive to push.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
But crucially for me, those types of consumer-series car names are not the future, there's no link anymore so why restrict it to them? It's why the FIA are pivoting away from and opening up rally to the motorsport companies - the tuners. Say the manufacturers championship standings could be, and the makes seen in all the national championships in 10 years time are:
1. Toyota GR
2. LifeLive
3. Prodrive
4. M-Sport
5. Paddonsport
6. Oreca
7. Lancia
8. Pastrana Subaru
9. Stohl
10. MEM
11. ....etc...
Maybe it doesn't end up working like this, or it does but is not a success. But it is a nice possibility to believe in. We're here in "WRC mainclass" so your thoughts on the success of R5/Rally2 aside, how do you get entries into the WRC mainclass? If there is a higher tuned WRC car where nobody was forced to do it, who do you realistically see willing to compete against Toyota in 2027? The promoter wants out so we can assume they don't want to back anybody, although with the cheaper cars they might. So at best it'd still be two teams chasing Toyota in the way Hyundai and M-Sport do now.
1. Toyota GR * 4/5 cars
2. M-Sport * 2 cars
3. FIA Rallystar * 2 cars
We're here now and they're wanting to get away from it. Nobody here even wants that, do they?
er. it's the same thing i was saying all along.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
u made a list of basically 1 manufacturer and some tuners. i was exactly saying that manufactures will not invest in this model of top championship. they will not enter for charity, for helping the series or making it more interesting for fans. for them interesting = making more money than invested (and selling car is not the point anymore, the point is all about marketing, brand visibility, reputation. sadly, rally does not have the right stats for this atm)
it's quite clear that the main idea of fia/promoter is to move the championship from manufacturers to privateers to increase the numbers, 'cause they are not able to generate enough interest in the wrc series to make big manufacturers invest money in it for -basically- marketing returns.
but rally is a sport and not an enterprise, so is totally ok to move to lower money to have more participants at the cost of leveling down the sport and the show. maybe a bit harsh for long-time fans, but ok.
that way, manufacturers will not use their name -aka brand identity, credibility, reputation- for this. they are ok with this rally2 model in which they sell car to others but not compete directly. if u force them into first-hand competition, they'll leave. That's the market that's giving up. And that's why we don't have any news about the new pyramid for '27 on, cause they're looking for a solution to not disrupt regional rally with the new wrc reg. why they did not simply go to rally2 for '27? because manus said no. hiunday + toyota to not lose "eliteness" for the brand. skoda, stellantis, renault to not enter this competition market.
wrc need a mainclass that is attractive in term of selling tv shows, selling merchandise, increase brand visibility on media (social and traditional). generate revenue for the participants. in the same way of f1, or nba or football. or any other sport.
u can choose to go the manufacturers way, or go to the privateers way. i'm not here to say what's right or wrong. i'm just saying that's hard to stay in the middle as they did before. (wrc for marketing/eliteness and regional rally for selling cars) let's see the new era!
lancia is a good example. their sport director said to italian media: rally 4 is just a little marketing test for the brand visibility. if lancia flag will appear enough around the world and the media, then maybe the board will give green light to a rally2 step, but for now, we are just testing if motorsport is responding enough for invest in it. 100+ car produced is a good start to harald the brand, he said.
let's hope so. it's all about this. let's hope the new promoter ( if they can find one...) will be able to increase the capability of wrc in that sense!
What is a manufacturer to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
I made a list of 10 manufacturers of rally cars that'd be available for sale to the public (hypothetically). They'd all be manufacturers, manufacturing manufacturers' wares. You might say "but I can't buy one". Yes you could. "You don't see anybody driving them on the roads". How often do you see a Rally1/2/3/4/5 being driven?
Lancia built 100 Rally4s already? Great, why not allow low-volume car manufacturers in to that market? Why does there need to be 25,000 similar looking cars of a different construction, different fuel type, sharing little comforts and components... etc.. it doesn't make sense. It would only make sense if Lancia/Stellantis were pouring enough bucks into the FIA coffers, but it appears the manufs are all in crises.
This is a long term reset and transformation for sustainability into the next decades, not a 'how do we scrape through another season with the existing players'. The 'touring car' is dead, going rallying with a 'modified series-production touring car' is dead, and there's zero link between a rally car and 'SUV' mobility vehicle/android phone on wheels.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
So you want rally championships to cease to exist and replace them with... a buggy championship? Like buggies we see in Dakar, such as the MD Optimus buggy, or Extreme E? Because what you're describing don't seem to be rally cars. A championship that uses buggies is not a rally championship, just like a championship that uses motorbikes is not a rally championship. Would be the same as suggesting that touring car series start using single seaters, they wouldn't be touring car series anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
The argument of "rally cars have strayed so far from their origins, let's just abandon the concept of rally car altogether and have a rally championship without rally cars" doesn't seem to fix the patient's problem, it eliminates the patient.
Unless you mean that cars made by tuners like the Swedish Mitsubishi Mirage R5 should be allowed to compete, in that case I agree. Could you give some example (real or not) of cars you'd see running?
"going rallying with a 'modified series-production touring car' is dead": 99,9% (probably more) of rally cars in the world are modified series production cars, there are quite big entry lists filled with those all over Europe.
Please don't suggest I want to see a buggy championship. Is a Rally1 a buggy? Is a Rally1 a touring car?
These new rules allow for bespoke designs by tuners. Do you want to call them buggies because they don't have a Toyota badge on? I'm not going near the word. You are free to call them that, I disagree. Can you tell me the 'tuners' are not manufacturers IF they offer their builds for sale? Why and how?
Yes there are many series-production touring car bodyshells being rallied. They are not modified touring cars - and they're practically all deprecated or on their way. How many common parts are between a C3 on the street and a Rally2?
How about a McRae R4 of today, space frame style.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
what about these ones? lol
really cheap, fast, spec ford engines (tho some used Illmor engines in RX?), tube frames and ugly body kits to remember 'road cars"... theres a MercedesISH, the second one is a fiestaISH? or an audiISH? haha something like that. they had another models at some point, also ugly.
just work on that bodykit.
andros trophy series used stuff like that too. french 'division 3' in rallycross also have stuff like that. its cool cuz their engines are on the back, so its like some of those old group b cars where they open the 'back' of the car and its just tubes and the engine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9RaepuCtlE
We had this car in the UK back in the early 2000s which would make the ultimate 2027 spec car!
https://youtu.be/ekG6wbaQKlg?feature=shared
Come back Andy Burton your time is now!
As a complete non-expert on the rules side of things, I can confirm that that was a fun car to watch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal yet again
Although I wonder how much of that is down to roadside cameras, older suspension giving some bounce, and a bit of sideways. Would a modern version be as fun?
My post was a bit tongue in cheek and as you say for WRC level the refinement needed for such a car would probably remove some of the wow factor. Having said that it is an example of what a "tuner" might be able to produce. My only issue is that rallying has mostly been about manufacturers in the past unlike say sportscars with its number of independent chassis makers and I just wonder how many "tuners" will be able to find the budget to develop and then run cars with good drivers onboard over a worldwide season as the championship moves away from its traditional European base.
to me, and to most of people in the rally world, a manufacturer is a company that produces road cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
but we can also refer to company/entity that builds their own shells, works the same, as the majority of names you did are just tuners, or company/entity that uses others' shells to prepare a race car. in the space frame era, maybe this can change, but till now, i don't see anyone other than a manu producing space frame chassis. (and that works only for rally1, minor category still refers to a legal road car as base.) so, i see the road version of every rally2/3/4/5 being driven, and also we can say that yaris gr and i20n are base model for rally1 ( the puma is a bit different...)
honestly, i don't get all the part about lancia. if u are saying that fia must change the homologation standard, i can agree. anyway, the minimum quantity for rally2 (and lesser) is 2500, not 25000, that is not that far from low volume to me. rally1, as being a space frame doesn't have a minimum quantity.
i don't get also the last part. long term reset and transformation is about the strategy and the direction of the championship, not so much about the technicalities of the car. if an existing car class can fit the strategy, then it's ok, no need to look for a revolution. and as you can see, we were very close to base this "long term reset" simply on the rally2 cars, now it looks like we will have a rally2mod or rally2+ for 2027 on, with balanced performance with the current ones.
A Rally1 car is neither a buggy nor a touring car, it's a rally car. It's probably the furthest you can get to still call it a rally car, since at the very least they resemble a road car.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
But I don't know what you mean by touring car, to me a touring car is a Civic TCR. A regular, road going Civic is a road car to me.
A Buggy is a vehicle that is not based on any road car and that doesn't even resemble any road car. You are describing buggies but you don't want to call them buggies. Some called them "protos" in cross country rallying, if you prefer.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
What tuners are you talking about? Tuners like Abt Sportsline, that tune road cars and is also a motorsport team? Yes, they're tuners, not a manufacturer.
Prodrive, that developed and run Subaru in WRC and Aston Martin in GT? They are tuners... the Prodrive Hunter was also sold as road car, I don't know in how many units, so one could suggest they are a manufacturer too.
MD Rallye Sport or Century, that produce buggies for Dakar? Not tuners in my book. They are manufacturers of buggies, and not car manufacturers. If they would start selling their Optimus and CR6 as road vehicles, I could start calling them car manufacturers.
Yes, they are based on road car bodyshells, which makes them rally cars. Modified touring cars, you mean like group N cars or what? Still plenty of them around, although I agree they will hardly be the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
There was a project to sell road going McRae R4s, but it was canned after Colin's death. Since that didn't happen, to me a McRae R4 is a buggy/proto.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
Yes but putting them all together in a coherent design with realistic car bodywork and appropriate functioning aero is a different thing altogether.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
Plus there's the rule requiring them all to be ICE powered to start with when some may want to be electric or hydrogen or hybrid going forward.
Apart from Toyota, I just dont see it being possible in the timeframe and certainly not if the others want to be competitive and reliable. And none will want to go ahead with all the investment required only to have a car that's slow and look bad.
PS. If we look back to the Group B era where the cars were spaceframe and had a lot of freedom, it still took years for many Manufacturers to develop their car...
1982 Lancia 037
1983 (not s/f) Quattro, Manta, Celica, 911, R5
1984 205T16, Quattro S1
1985 Metro 6R4, Delta S4
1986 Ford RS200
Rally is a road sport, and bespoke-design spaceframe build rally cars are road cars. I get your point though, I'm not going to argue you should change it, but it's not logically definitive.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
Forget what these hypothetical example 'tuners' might have done before, think what they might do. If they are building a car from scratch and the car's legal registration papers have their name/make then they're not using another company's chassis or body.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
We could also digress into body-on-chassis cars like a lot of the big American SUVs are and older cars were. And we could get into the makes that contract out the construction of shells; but if this is your belief, fine. What I'm hearing from you is "series-production manufacturer with funds and capable of churning out 10,000s cars per year for the average consumer" Fine.
Yes, 2500 for others; 25,000 of a model family for WRC and Rally1. For me this conversation is revolving around WRC top class so I may have conflated points; and I would think that a WRC2027 without powertrain would be largely the same up and down the pyramid. Willing to be corrected on that, but as a Fiesta body made it to every step, I think it's doable and good practice in the long term.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
I just listened to the DF Stage Mode podcast with Andrea's Mikkelsen. He said that everyone he speaks to (about a drive) says they wont make 2027 because the Rules are still not out. Its already so late. He heard that maybe Toyota will be the only ones ready.
it's really not about what me or you prefer. it's just what the motorsport governing body refers to to make the regulations. you, me or anyone else can disagree on it, still it's them that define what a manufacturer is.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
and i don't like the "wht ifs..." hypotetically everyone can do everything in the future, realistically, we still don't have a clear path to '27 and no new brand officially committed (actually we are losing them from the last wrc era)
Fully agree!Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
Disagree! Rally cars are road cars, they legally have to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
Historically, a touring car was used to go touring. You take your friends and family and luggage and go somewhere nice for leisure and pleasure. It's from way back when there was no commute, no suburbs, no out of town shopping centres or weekly family shop at the supermarket, no motorways or even much tarmac. If you needed to be somewhere you took the train. Other options at the time were runabout, towncar, limousine, cab, doctor's car, etc which had different build qualities around those purposes.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
~100 years ago, FIA considered three types of cars for motorsport purposes: Racing Cars, Sports cars, and Touring Cars. Rallying, being a touring road sport and not requiring speed originally, mainly used TCs but began to allow sports cars (and GTs) more in the 40s/50s/60s, and as special stage rallying took off. Then in the late 80s all cars had to be four seater touring cars in Groups A and N. Then Group R rally cars were invented but they had to be based on Group A touring cars out of a tradition and everybody pretends they've been modified, like 'there were rear seats in Rossel's C3 but we ripped them out for the rally and we will put them back' (I'm being dramatic).
At least the Rally1 regs do not even mention touring cars. They are defined as 'single example competition cars' but must have a 'series production reference car' for what it looks like. There's no evidence to say that has to be a touring car, and the Puma isn't even homologated in Group A.
This name 'touring car' dropped off in English but stayed on in French, so what used to be called The British Saloon Car Championship became the British Touring Car Championship to match FIA words in the 1980s. (Maybe they had to be Group A? Supertourers and all that?) So there's no surprise if you are an English speaker and associate Touring cars with racing, but this is a poor choice from those original 3. You're not going touring in a TCR, it's a racing car and not road legal. And if you don't call the Civic 'road car' a touring car, it's because it's a stupid name for most people's purposes, but at least you can go touring in it if you wanted to.
Honestly, I didn't mention this and you can check. I don't need an explanation. I'm describing WRC2027 rules as I understand them and Rally1 because they're the spaceframe example. In construction terms, there's no difference between Rally1 and WRC2027. We've difference in opinion of what a road car is and if you choose to call them buggies, feel free.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
So back to discussion, Rally1 being visually based on 'series production cars' but there's no 'series production car manufacturers' interested in WRC. The rules are being changed to allow bespoke rally designs and for 'tuners' to build chasses; I've no idea what they mean by Tuners, because I cannot see what they are 'tuning' as like you suggest a 'tuner' would 'tune' something already existing. I agree with that definition. If you can tell me why I am in the wrong for thinking a small cheese can build a WRC2027 car, I'd be grateful.
I'm willing to agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
I'm here to discuss what is planned. I'm long past hearing people's opinions on what they should be doing believe me. Yes there's a lot of unknowns but like I said to Focus, if you can tell me where I'm wrong about my interpretation of what's planned then I'm not wasting my time coming here.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
I can bet on this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
January 2027 P.R.:
"Can the new Toyotas WRC27 beat the +40 R5s in every event?"
Fans after Monte Carlo:
"FIA killed the sport! They should DEMAND Toyota to run only R5s, otherwise this is just like those crappy years in WEC where they ran alone on the front. What a joke"
everybody is here to discuss the news, and free to do so!Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
i can't tell if your vision is wrong or not, i can tell what i see, the same way you do.
and what i see is that, to me, is totally unrealistic to think than any small cheese can build a wrc27. or better: it's true. anyone can do it, but almost no one could then run it in the wrc championship, nor would sustain the production rhytm to make selling those cars profitable or even sustainable. there's too much money needed to logistics, even without thinking about test and development to challenge the resource of toyota. and just being there is not enough, cause few people will buy them a car that can't compete. is momething that we already seen with m-sport, and we can also not consider rally1 in it. they are a good tuner example in the rally2 market... they can compete in the fisrst times, being the first in the market (think fiesta r5) but then they faded against giants like skoda, toyota. and they are big "tuner", a company that employs hundreds of people.
i just think this solution is a bit too simplistic/optimistic. sure thing, making building cars accessible is a good thing, but to me, the problems arise in running it a full season(s) and building hundreds quickly to make it profitable. i think that are the topics that are slowing down things for '27. as for wrc+ and rally1: the point was not building the cars, but run it...
I'm aware of the historical definition, I just didn't think anyone would still use it today. Last time I saw (on ewrc-results) a rally dividing cars into touring and great touring classes, it was probably from the 60's. So a touring car is a regular road legal car, like almost all vehicles we see on the road? Pretty sure in many other languages if you say touring car, it means exclusively a race car such as TCR nowdays.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
You didn't mention them, you described them, if you meant in 2027+ rally championship should allow vehicles that aren't road legal and don't resemble road/touring cars. And that goes beyond the official manufacturer vs tuner difference. Audi had a buggy for Dakar, if they entered it without making a road version, it would still be a buggy to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
I don't think you're wrong for thinking that tuners or non official manufacturers can build a rally car. I think you're wrong in considering something like a McRae R4, which is not a road car and never had any type of production except for cross country rally costumers, a rally car that should be allowed to take part in rally championships. To me, that could bring in the future companies like let's say Red Bull, making their own purpose-made vehicle exclusively to tackle WRC, which is a sight I hope I'll never see.
If, in theory, we get things like AP4 or the Swedish Mirage R5, I'd be happy to welcome them. In practice, I doubt it's so simple.
Not for me. It's the FIA's definition for Group A and N. Group B was for GTs but also included sports specials it allowed the beasts that got banned and so WRC manufacturers championship never saw a GT or sportscar again because they're still stuck on those Groups' rules written in the 70s.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
Which is a good time to also mention from before Groups N, A and B; Lancia's space frame Stratos rally special, Alpine's backbone chassis, fibre body, A110 sportscar. Two seater Porsche 911s. Apparently not the DNA of rallying?
I really didn't, try quoting me! Anybody can build a road legal car to their own design at home, though as those 70s examples above and Group B (037, RS200) show is in spirit, I would love to step away from having to resemble 'touring cars' even if they had to be series-produced. If you think the R4 is a buggy, what do you think of those?Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
You'll still watch it �� and it's probably what they want to achieve.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
The Alfa-Ferrari Andy Burton built before the Peugeot Cosworth was pretty spectacular also!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2rROTHn5y0
You wrote:Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
"But crucially for me, those types of consumer-series car names are not the future, there's no link anymore so why restrict it to them?"
"I made a list of 10 manufacturers of rally cars that'd be available for sale to the public (hypothetically). They'd all be manufacturers, manufacturing manufacturers' wares. You might say "but I can't buy one". Yes you could. "You don't see anybody driving them on the roads". How often do you see a Rally1/2/3/4/5 being driven?"
to which I asked you what you meant and if you could give me an example. You answered:
"How about a McRae R4 of today, space frame style."
Which is a buggy to me. The RS200 and the 037 are not buggies to me, they were sold to the (not so) general public as road cars. I don't find relevant if they fall into the touring or grand touring or whatever category.
I wouldn't, and I think many fans would get sick pretty soon if there's a championship filled with buggies or protos or fantasy purpose-built cars. I think some fans prefer cars over show, others prefer show over cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
Growing up, my rally fan classmates and friends loved cars and loved rallying because rally cars were based on road cars (group N, or the huge amount of small FWD French cars, etc) or at least there was a resemblance with the bodyshell like in WRC, racing on everyday town and country roads. Rally cars were not like single seaters, bunch of almost identical looking rockets on 4 wheels with different liveries. Of course, rallying is a great sport to spectate, so show mattered as well.
But to choose show over rally cars, no. You could guarantee to me that if we put Ogier, Neuville and Tanak on dirt bikes, we'd get a super exciting championship with lots of show, I still wouldn't care, I'm not enough of a motorbike fan. I'd rather see them drive Peugeot 106 N2 than a Red Bull buggy, and I'm positive many fans who like cars over show would also be disappointed to have many McRae R4-like cars in the championship. I watch them when I follow Dakar. Hopefully there's something inbetween.
I remember the McRae R4 from an old rally game (DiRT 3) and never bothering to use it. It wasnt a 'proper car' nor had it been used in rallies by the drivers I admired.
If they went down this route I feel many would feel the same way. Plus if the existing star drivers didnt stay or retired this would also kill the viewership.
Rally cars have to have a road car connection, however vague, or it's just not a rally car.
For me Buggies are either for pushing young children in and built by Maclaren; or they're a bit bigger for a few adults, powered, and found on the beaches of 1960's California, the moon or a golf course. These usually have no/low sides, no windscreen/windows or rooves, have a high centre of gravity and do not make suitable or safe road-rally cars at all.
I'm not saying WRC2027 cars shouldn't have rules and be a free-for-all designs; the bodywork reference volumes were already decided and they could have been based on production road safety guidelines by prominent bodies. They must be fully closed with windscreens etc. There's your road car connection no? It's an idea that'll rule out the Audi buggy, moon buggy and the sofa. And probably the R4 is too small.
McRae had a plan to build a road legal car useful for various motorsport disciplines and for sale to the public. The only difference between this (being done now) and the Stratos, 037, RS200 is that he wouldn't have had to build a minimum number, and as stories go, neither did Lancia or Ford anyway so they're exactly the same car type. His was the most hideous looking car I've ever seen, but if Loeb turns up to Monte 27 in it, I'm watching.
If instead of WRC you want to see a rally series which has scores of production road car makes involved, with true 2027 road relevance; check out this series.
Those are dune buggies. In Dakar and cross country rallies, these are called buggies (by everyone, not just by me):Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
https://joseluismonterde.wordpress.c...onterde_01.jpg
As you can see, they're closed and have windscreens, but they're still called buggies by everyone.
The difference is that there were 0 McRae R4s as road cars for the public. Few is better than 0, and to me 0 road cars for the public automatically disqualifies a veichle to be considered for a rally championship.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
That's a regularity rally championship that doesn't involve rally cars, different discipline. One could suggest that if you want to see buggies (or however you'd like to call them) in WRC, why not just create a new motorsport discipline? You can call it WBC, so one can go watch that and leave the RALLY championships alone, since I would imagine that to run a rally championship you'd need rally cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
Actually there are at least 2 disciplines to see any kind of prototype racing: hillclimb and gymkana/slalom. why turn rally into it?
So it seems that the ‘tuners’ will really just be bodywork manufacturers:
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/what-...c-2027-so-far/
There are some points I like about these regulations; a return to production based engines (so they are at least more of a proper rally car than Rally1) & less silly aero bits/downforce.
I’m not sure of the wisdom of also having these cars as the main class for regional and national championships too as it will push costs up there and remove the ‘pyramid’
I can see the old R5 & Rally2 Cars going on and on for years, dropping down the rally levels like the Subaru's and Evo's before them. These will be the lower pyramid cars, although still too expensive for many. Plus Rally3 cars will also be around as they're pretty new.
I see the picture used is now also credited to M-Sport too, not just FIA. Maybe its how the WRC27 Puma could look & a hopeful sign that they are on board & may have it ready in time ?
https://dirtfish-editorial.s3-accele...up-700x700.jpg
"A tuner will have to align with a single manufacturer running a currently homologated car – and don’t forget the manufacturers are obligated to sell their parts."
This should calm down the road connection is dead talks.