I think the biggest winner here is Katsuta. On Sunday hell compete only with those who also crashed on saturday. If theres 1 other, hell get 6 points, if theres 2, hell get 5 🤣
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I think the biggest winner here is Katsuta. On Sunday hell compete only with those who also crashed on saturday. If theres 1 other, hell get 6 points, if theres 2, hell get 5 🤣
No, it doesn't say a rally win is decided at Saturday in the regulations. Championship points are decided at Saturday evening, subject to completion of the rally. If you want to win the rally you will probably be rewarded well in the championship.Quote:
Originally Posted by bluuford
Newer fans will have fewer troubles understanding this because they won't have to unlearn a start-to-finish classification as contribution to the championship.
Here you have described zero change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kras
Not really. So far this was true for people who lost a lot of time (minutes). They would then cruise till PS and settle for a possibility of 5 points. Now you'll lose 40 seconds and then cruise on saturday and attack 12 points on Sunday.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
You are correct, I could not find the place that says who is the winner of the rally? Fastest by the end of Saturday? The one who gets most points by Sunday evening? Or they have forgotten to mention that to find out the rally winner they summarize the times of Saturday evening and Sunday:/Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
Depending if road order and quantity of Sunday starters means anything. You have a point, smaller mistakes than before will be costlier, but I can't see anybody cruising. We'll have to see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kras
I don't think they ever did. But interestingly, now that there are no championship points on offer for final classifications (and rally wins), in a championship dead heat situation, final classifications will still be used.Quote:
Originally Posted by bluuford
And now, what is the final classification you refer to? :P Saturday final? points per event final? etc. confusing...Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
At least now the WRC is dead! Is this David Richards´s idea`? What a stupid decision!
Can't wait for drivers oppinions on this. Should be funny
How long have you been doing this? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by bluuford
There's no suggestion the supplementary regs/itinerary/format/organisation etc of a rally need to change. We've only been reading about the application of championship points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Regs
Shouldn't the win be the end goal of any competition? How can it be a win if it's not a guaranteed best outcome for a competitor. It' just moronic. You can call it a win, a pepsi, a Putin or whatever you like. It's not a win if it doesn't count for anything. And anyone who gets this bullshit explained to him will say its retardedQuote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
too long... I am just wondering that If I have been quite closely involved in Rally for ca 15 years, been on site for last ca 6+ years for nearly every event.. and I cannot clearly understand..Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
let me try once more to understand now..
Classification for max 18 points are locked when cars go parc Ferme on Saturday evening..
Then there is separate classification for Sunday, you get max 7+5 points. And then rally finishes. So, now you take Saturday time+ Sunday time and you get final classification? That also declares rally winner, but it has nothing to do with the points. So, that means you can be fourth on Saturday (maybe roadsweeping onf Friday, les Sweeping on Saturday), you get 10 points. You are second fastest on Sunday, get 5th place on powerstage and you collect 7 points on Sunday but you win the rally in overall time. So you get 17 points. One point less than winner by the end of Saturday + possible points for this person on Sunday. So, finally there is no more clear relation between rally winner and who is collecting max points for rally..
I think it may achieve the goal to reduce cruising on Sunday, but not eliminate it completely and also preserves an endurance aspect by needing to finish Sunday, but boy does it feel contrived. Also I'm not sure there's a good way to decide the winner of the rally!
If winner = leader after Saturday then as bluuford pointed out the winner could receive fewer points than 2nd or 3rd or maybe even lower
If winner = leader of the aggregate Friday, Saturday and Sunday overall standings, then the winner is decided by a classification which does not award points. Again the winner could leave with fewer points.
If winner = most points scored then it feels more like a round of ERC plus a Rally sprint with a power stage added together.
It would be stupid if the winner of the rally goes away with fewer points than somebody else, that's not a winner that's called a sucker...
I don't know how to comment on that. Just imagine how many people spent their well paid time to finally come to this.Quote:
Originally Posted by JRodrigues
And here I am coming with my first thoughts about words with changes in regulations. First we must say what we really wants. I know that this idea with separate classification for Sunday came also from drivers, but I am thinking how this version should help to anything...
For me, the most stupid thing is not to have points for drivers who are fastest in whole rally. This is the most easiest and understandable way for everybody in all sports - winner is competitor who is fastest from beginning till the end.
We were discussing few years ago points system in czech championship also. I think we have found a system which is not completely bad and much better than this one - we have separate points for each leg (15 for winning each leg) and also classification of the whole rally (30 points). So points for winning the rally are equal to points for winning both legs. It is much easier and understandable.
This version of WRC points is one big shit for me. Too complicated for everybody and absolutely hard to understand. I cannot imagine how this can help to anything. Only to bring WRC to deeper shit than it is now...
Fair opinion. But winning the rally will have it's own prize awarded by the organiser. FIA championship can be seen as a different objective, like how Burns and Ogier won titles driving smart with only two wins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kras
Realistically we might not see an occasion where the winner is outscored. I might put that in a prediction thread. Or, there may be occasions where the non-winning highest point scorer is fully deserved.
It might not work well, but FIA and promoter are doing *something*. Those people who complained for years that they need to do *something* need to stop living in fantasy land and be realistic about what is achievable.
Imagine driver A is first after Saturday. He has 18 points. So he decides to cruise on Sunday, but all the other drivers will push. He will end 7th that day and overall gets 19 points. Also, because he cruised, he fell to 4th place overall, but that has no impact on points.
Driver B on the other hand would have issues in the first leg and end up 5th after Saturday. He will get 8 points for that, so he decides to push on Sunday. He would end 2nd overall after Sunday, and as the fastest driver of that day, he would get 7 points for the leg and 5 points for PS win. Overall, he would get 20 points for the event.
Then we have a very consistent driver C. He will finish 1st leg on 2nd place behind driver A, gaining him 15 points. Then he would want to gain more points on Sunday, he would be 2nd that day and 2nd in PS, that would gain him 6+4 points he would get 25 points overall and would be the winner of the rally.
I didn't like it at first, but it looks to me like a pretty solid point system that awards speed and consistency through the whole rally (as it kinda soft delete time gaps on Sunday). Maybe it would be better if points were rewarded also for the overall results after Sunday (even if it would be 5-4-3-2-1) and if there weren't PS points. I think there won't be many situations where overall winners wouldn't get the most points. But it's true that it's pretty complicated on first sight.
Who will be a winner of the rally, driver with a best overall time or driver with more points!
For me it is quite good point system, BUT there is ONE BIG ERROR.. WINNING RALLY IS NOT SO VALUABLE NOW.. THATS WRONG!!
Just to be clear, apparently the change was discussed at the Baku WMSC meeting and then ratified by the WRC task force.
"World Motor Sport Council discussed the potential for change at its Baku meeting earlier this month, with the WMSC Task Force ratifying both this change and the option for Rally1 cars to run without a hybrid system." (https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrcs-...unday-driving/)
Yeah completely excluding the overall results seems like a bad step. Even some small amount of points for winner or top 3 would fix that.Quote:
Originally Posted by CeskyOndra
This is a solution looking for a problem isn't it? Sunday cruising only became a big issue since we got All live right? Cruising through part of a rally (or sometimes even the whole one) was always part of it. I can't comprehend that someone thought that an integral part of pretty much any form of motorsport is such a big problem that they threw the kitchen sink at it and made it so unclear that people working in the sport and hardcore fans struggle to disect how it works.
The other classes still run the normal 3 day format with standardized FIA point system?
I agree. Nobody likes when a rally or a race is predictable towards the end, but that's just how motorsport is. Overcomplicating the scoring system this way is like flooding an entire village because one house is on fire.Quote:
Originally Posted by becher
Power Sunday instead of Power stage would have been okay for me. Hell, even Neuville's idea of having a 2 days rally + an independent rallysprint on Sunday - which I don't like - would be better, much clearer to understand for fans, especially who might be attracted to WRC for the first time.
I hope it will end up working better than expected.
i dont understand why you guys take for granted atm that the guy who is first after saturday, will cruise on sunday, at least this is what reflects in the posts so far.
Now they all must speed up on sunday, so they wouldnt loose points against each other or im getting it wrong again?
I just looked at this years Monte results for an example with the new points system
The end result would have been:
Ogier 26 (same amount he got this year with the "old" system)
Rovanperä 26 (23 in 2023)
Neuville 20 (17 in 2023)
Evans 17 (15 in 2023)
Tänak 13 (14 in 2023)
Sordo 7 (6 in 2023)
Katsuta 6 (8 in 2023)
Lappi 5 (3 in 2023)
The top 4 after saturday was also the fastest top4 on sunday overall. The only man who gained a position was Sordo, he was 7th in this years classification but would have been 6th with the new system.
im not protectin the new idea or anything, like i said, i will wait for couple of rallies but the value of the win isnt that great indeed anymore which is sad.
A bit more info here from the horses mouth so to speakQuote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGkgXYGHvAs&t=1748s
Erm...Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
You've read it right.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
Do you not think the differences here are just the realities of applying that vision?Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
No, to me it seems a clumsy and overcomplicated way to apply that vision, a vision that I rate anyway worse than the system we've had so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
Yes totally no problem with points but for me it is really chaotic and strange for everybody.
Why people saying no more all stage times counting to winner? That is clear. The rally winner appuration is same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Regs
What's your thoughts Andre? You understand the game enough.
He's just coming to put the nails in the coffin, to finish the job he started...Quote:
Originally Posted by rp
The new rules sound just stupid. Now many of us can't even clearly understand hoe the winner of an event is determined.
The real problem is lack of competition due to the small amont of competitors. They should deal with actual problems no some pseudo bullshit.
If they wanted to make Sundays more interesting in a understandable manner, then it would have been easier just give extra points for stage wins on Sunday and maybe give a set of new tyres before powerstage.
I think this will be a only a one year experiment.
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How do you determine it now? Nothing is changing.Quote:
Originally Posted by trykmann
In six months time all of this will be universally understood, if not accepted.
And everyone on this forum will recount championship after 2023 rules... :) :)Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
If people have to debate or discuss how to understand the rules, then we can conclude they are not easily understandable.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
Rules have to be simple.
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Exactly, you want to be able to look at the results and determine how many points each driver got from the top of your head. If you have to go to ewrc and check saturday and sunday results separately and then apply two different point schemes it's not exactly customer (=fan) friendly.Quote:
Originally Posted by trykmann
Absolutely, in fact I'd be surprised if there isn't an alternative table somewhere throughout the season.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
Many people didn't read properly, jumped to conclusions and spread false information. Like people deciding in their own heads this is Dave Richard's fault lol. I burnt my toast this morning, Dodgy Dave struck again grrr!Quote:
Originally Posted by trykmann