85.000€ for those stuff in picture ?
Pure robbery :(
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85.000€ for those stuff in picture ?
Pure robbery :(
Another class born dead...
Is it? I'm not really aware about motorsport prices. Could someone give me an estimate for the cost of such an engine? Gearbox? Differentials? I know axles like that cost quickly a couple of 1000 euros each. Fueltank will be expensive too.Quote:
Originally Posted by pantealex
But again, not sure about usual prices for the more complex parts.
In such a low-scale production things are definitely more expensive, but there seems to be too much air in that price. They did not invent a bicycle...i`m not even sure if they designed new parts entirely or just borrowed from some production cars. Engine was PSA`s i believe? Add the price of a donor car ( lets say, it`s brand new from the dealership), rebuilding it, good suspension and the price is ~150k. Quite hard to find clients from hobby-drivers in national championships or developing young drivers, who need to be minimally in a R5 to show themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by dupanton
Oreca slashed 20% off the FIA kit price. They could probably have taken 40% off and still have numbers well into the blues.
Lets do an example n how it could be done on a budget.
A used Ford Fiesta Mk7 can be bought for 5000€.
A bodyshop tuner can easily make changes to the body to take onboard the Oreca kit. Maybe 10-15 000€
Then we have the suspension. Not sure how much a set of 3 way Reigers as used on the R2 cost, maybe 8-10 000€.
4wd system after strict FIA rules, fully passive, and simple.
Had we continued down the road of using a tuning firm, and letting them building the car ready to eat an spec engine from Oreca.
Maybe a car could be had for 50-60 000€.
This is done in rallycross all the time, and keeps prices down. You need to keep local tuners alive!
R4 should be a class for talent development in private teams that want to drive a 4wd on a budget. Let the factory people have R5 as their playground.
In theory. In practice that rebuilt chassis would have quite a bit light details and the price will double. FWD suspension is also another world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
Honestly, a 4wd rally car supposed to run in national and international rally series for what costs now a R2 sounds totally unrealistic...besides, 8 or 10 years ago you couldn’t buy a top N4 for less than 120.000€ and a new R4 Evo or Impreza were costing quite more than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
The price cut on Oreca kit is a positive move and if national tuners offer their final models for 150.000€ (still 100.000€ less than a R5) there would be a market for R4, especially if importers and dealers from brands currently not involved in rally see it as a chance to get into the sport.
R4 is having a slow birth; let's hope it'll eventually succeed!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Except that N4 was hugely popular. It was a car you could buy from a dealership, get groceries, go to work, practice in clubman events in the weekends, before gradually turning it into a high spec (or not so high spec) . N4, with what you could tackle RC2 and compete for the overall victory in local championships, atleast against several competitors in your class. None of that is possible with a R4.
Come on, how many rally N4’s were also used as every day cars, even low spec ones?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmop
R4 is a good concept and besides allowing private tuners to get an important role (they’re the cars builders) it also allows brands unable to develop R5 or WRC programs to be involved in rally, through their importers and dealers.
Having a single supplier for the kit wasn’t a smart move, but there’s room for this new category both national and internationally, once the cars are cheap to maintain and cost a fraction of current 4wd rally cars.
If private tuners get massively into it and start competing to take costumers choice, R4 can become a success and help to develop the sport. Fingers crossed!
Problem for N4 (and old R4) was/is that there is only 2 brands Mitsu and Subaru. Others were also homologated but 99,9% did choose 2.
Exactly and now when there is nothing left in the stock production (even Impreza is about to end soon) there is no use of talking about gr.N. It's just a past, nothing more.
The new Subaru wrx is likely to come in 2020. Stick transmission and 2.4 liter engine? But the 'long' wheelbase chassis might be not so favourable for people hoping for the front of topline rally competition.
https://www.auto123.com/en/news/2020...mission/64537/
Think I still like the hatchback subaru - it has been a good relatively affordable car for a number of nz competitors to run.
e.g nz dad and son competitors having a go in targa.
https://www.facebook.com/TargaNZ/vid...2177591868290/
As above in this thread list - mazda 2 2015 shares the all wheel drive compact suv platform so has the shaft to rear diff tunnel there already. reduces a bit work for a oreca r4 type conversion.
The ap4 nz toyota yaris is listed at $220 000 and a few other costs are mentioned in this article. https://rallysportmag.com/r5-vs-ap4-...wn-to-dollars/
If this new "R3" class going to happen, what happens to the R4 kit, and what kind of rules is possible?
I really hopes FIA give this a real chance, not strangle it before it even start.
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It's hard to believe that the FIA will bin the R4 Kit. For now there's just that info on Rally Magazin, which seems too vague.Quote:
Originally Posted by skarderud
I thought just the numbering would change. From R4 to R3Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Milano Racing and Oreca are building a new rally car - Fiat 500X R4 (sorry, both articles in French):
https://www.autohebdo.fr/autres-cour...r4-197204.html
https://www.rallye-sport.fr/une-prem...our-la-france/
As jbmarcus indicated on another thread, there’s a PR in English: https://www.oreca.com/en/news_oreca/...ration-france/
https://www.oreca.com/wp-content/upl...3-1024x640.jpg
On their fb page, Milano Racing is also saying they’re willing to enter the MR 500X R4 in next year ERC.
It’s great to know R4 is still alive; best luck to Milano Racing and their 500X.
As I see it, its a good thing that someone dares to go in front and build a car or two, so we can see the R4 kit in action, and then make up our opinion.
So far we have only made comments based on cost and what we believe.
Compact crossovers are lovely cars to see rally. In America there's a Nissan Juke competing in the open class of many rallies, and it's pretty cool looking, not to mention it doesn't for a moment look ill proportioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Forme it is ill proportioned. It's way too high.
Is it higher than quite good Suzuki Ignis S1600 was ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
(I know different era and different car type)
Looks very high to me too.
It does look high (and quite ugly).
I read that road 500X is 4 cm higher than road Mini Countryman.
Is a good new for future of the R4-Kits Cars. Abarth 124 or Tipo would betters but good luck for the project.
What is so levely about compact crossovers? Are they not ugly?Quote:
Originally Posted by steve.mandzij
Most of the time they're just chunky hatchbacks, and for all the hate they get some aren't ugly at all, like the 500X and JukeQuote:
Originally Posted by Jarek Z
I think you'll find quite a big number of people who think the complete opposite than you of Juke.Quote:
Originally Posted by steve.mandzij
Maybe not (really) related to FIA R4, but this one relates to AP4, another alternative to R5, and this made me surprised.
There are some rumours in Indonesian rallying that one - estabilshed - rally teams are designing Mitsubishi Xpander AP4, which the base comes from the MPV car itself.
Previously they planned to build Mazda 2 AP4 after their visit to Australia/NZ, but it didn't happen because their ties with Mitsubishi
https://autonetmagz.com/wp-content/u...rally-look.jpg
Aaaagghhh......my eyes......
eeeeew
Wait till you see the lower trims..Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
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Why they using Xpander for AP4 if there is a Mirage..Quote:
Originally Posted by mArvAlcao17
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Apparently because Xpander's wheelbase are slightly longer than Evo X, so apparently they wanted to put Evo X's transmission etc' to Xpander.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Triyudho Wardono
They can use mirage like in NZ, but the developmental cost would be skyrocket, so they want something rather cheaper solutions for now.
2nd reason is of course, marketing. Xpanders are getting popular in Indonesia - so popular that they export a lot of them to few countries. In the same time opposite thing happened to Mirage. Just around 200 units on first six months, and then no units sold for the last three months.
https://www.liputan6.com/otomotif/re...apa-mitsubishi
Fiesta bad (we don´t need R1,R2,R4 and R5 from same car)
Dacia yes please !
Have anyone seen a price for a turnkey R4 from any of the tuning firms?
All I keep hearing is how R4 is already dead??
In Finnish championship R4 was not allowed 2018, main reason is/was that no one did know speed of R4, does it belong to same class with "R5" or with "N4". Own class is not option because minimum 10 entries is basic rule for class and 2 different 4wd classes is enough.
For me it's a little bit strange that a spanish company invest in R4 when in our national chamiponships we have N5 that are more or less the same and actually are quite common, probably more than 30 units have been built
R4 are FIA, so can be easly sold to everywhere.
R4 is not dead, but its biggest problem seems to be R5 success. Like some have pointed here, a new R4 is supposed to cost more than a used R5 and most amateur drivers will think twice before paying more for less; besides, for many of those drivers runing costs (one of R4 advantages) aren’t a big issue, as they usually do a limited number of low mileage national events and in most cases they also have the option to rent a R5 car at competitive prices, which probably is the most rational way to do a handful of events per year.Quote:
Originally Posted by racerx1979
N5 is the spanish version of Argentinian Maxi Rally. They use Subaru stock transmission and a ligth tuned PSA engine, but they still cost a lot more than a similar proto from Dytko using Mitsubishi mechanics and they don’t have FIA approval, like R4 has. Somehow N5 failed to attract manus attention (with Suzuki exception) and they’ve only become interesting to privateers as there’s a strong pressure from the main tuner (RMC) to sell them and a limited number of local rally companies renting R5’s.Quote:
Originally Posted by m-ast
Probably the best solution is to get a FIA rule for Europe inspired on AP4 regulation, allowing all sort of 4wd protos (MR, N5, AP4, R4, Dytko, etc) to run on a separate class from R5. It’d be easier than having different cars from country to country and would allow drivers to also run and sell their cars abroad. Clearly a win win situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira