Bingo! :s mokin:Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
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Bingo! :s mokin:Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
Not that hard, is it. You don't have to agree with anyone, just respect them for their own opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
Precisely. I enjoy debating like this but I do despair when people naturally assume that just because X and Y said that such and such a thing must be true that it is. I'd be fairly confident that if Brundle did inspect the crash with Maldonado he would come up with the conclusion that it was either Maldonado's fault or a racing incident. If Maldonado didn't know Lewis was there I'd put it down to a racing incident but clearly he changes is line to defend against Lewis and cuts across him leaving Lewis nowhere to go, thus I have to point the blame in Pastor's direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
Actually I do; and funnily enough I agree w/ the stewards in at least the Maldonaldo incident - I spoke about it earlier. Far as i'm concerned provided a driver doesn't use excessive blocking the rules allow for you to shut the door on a competitor in a fair manner. Maldonaldo was ahead of Lewis and in the process of closing the door when the new Ali G decided to dive bomb up the inside because it would seem based on the race had lost patience with being so far off Vettel.Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
My statement was more addressing the 'those 2 ex-[drivers] are incorrect' given that there are a fair few on here who agree w/ the penalty and moreso the fact that Lewis was to blame. It always seems if someone is a fan of a certain driver then a penalty against that driver is unfair yet a similar penalty against a competitor is deemed to be appropriate [would love to know whether some of the Lewis fans would have been arguing for Vettel to be banned for a race if he had been in Lewis' position].
And end of the day Lewis trying to play the 'race card' as a grounds for the penalty was completely ridiculous - i'm yet to see any real evidence supporting this? Yes he may have had a rough trot w/ certain individuals playing morons and he has every right to be offended and upset by that - but to then claim racism because the stewards are doing their job? Makes a mockery of those suffering from real racism. I put this on par w/ Bernie's comment concerning education and the issues in Bahrain.
Enough individuality and self opinion there for u SGWilko - note agreeing w/ the stewards/commentators IS having an opinion
When you start among the monkeys they seldom like you.
That's a bit more like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumbo
While those of us that believe Hamilton correct have given detailed accounts of what happened, unfortunately all I've heard from the anti-Hamilton brigade is that he divebombed up the inside because he lost patience or he dove in all repeated in varying different ways etc None of you have yet given details showing how he "dive bombed" from being almost level on the track with him. My guess is you actually can't give a detailed account because you're not able.
There is no evidence backing this up at all because to dive bomb up the inside of someone you have to be behind them and just throw it in or at least quite a bit further back than Hammy was. Hamilton was already on the inside with his front wing almost at the back of Maldonado's front wing. If that's a dive bomb then most overtaking must be a dive bomb because in most overtakes I've seen I'd rarely see a driver in a better position to outbrake his opponent into a corner than Hamilton was there.
By the way, the rules allow you to move once to defend your position. Maldonado moved twice whilst under attack from Lewis. If the stewards were being consistent he should have been penalised for that.
Well said. Bad joke. Bad timing. Most people, including the FIA, accept this.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
Plenty opinion yes - well done. But don't go on the defensive when you decide you 'have' to believe someone elses opinion over the commentators' opinions. You make up your own mind and stop putting down other peoples opinions. Dissagree by all means, but don't ridicule anothers' opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumbo
You are indeed allowed to block an overtake, but you'd expect the block to happen before the overtake is being made, otherwise you then just end up turning in on your competitor who is already alongside.
One has to factor in also that, rather than 'dive bombing' up the inside, Lewis was simply faster and better positioned to take the inside line to the corner by virtue of the speed advantage given by use of the DRS. If you cannot use the DRS to facilitate an overtake, why have it?
A lot of us voiced our concerns at the use of DRS at Monaco due to the confines and proximity of the barriers, nonetheless the FIA deemed it appropriate, and thus the Stewards really ought to consider the effect it could have in setting up such passes. Maldonado also showed his inexperience by. perhaps, not taking this into consideration. However, this is his rookie year, and you can expect mistakes to be made - this is after all how you learn!
On a seperate issue, I have been trying to determine the root cause of Massa's tunnel crash: Was it because he was on the marbles, was it due to damage from the McLaren or, was it damage to the wing stays due to clouting the Red Bull. The more I watch the replay, the more we can see just how hard Massa hit Webber - I think the hole in Massa's cars' nose was a result of this, and perhaps the resultant loss of front end grip set up the accident. Although ultimetely, he hit the barrier because the rear wheels lost traction on the marbles/dust off-line.
See I do have quite a good grasp of sarcasm - Brits may not believe it but we actually do speak English down under :p (did that work? did the sarcasm come through there) But making a joke about something which can be quite serious (just look at the way English fans hit the roof over the black-faced fans in Spain) is not on - especially when you have been around the block for more than 5mins. If Lewis didn't have a question mark in his own mind over it then why go there - he isn't that stupid as to think it wouldn't cause a headlineQuote:
Originally Posted by henners88
I'd imagine it was damage from the Loews hairpin a few corners before. How Hamilton got alongside Massa in the tunnel is beyond me. I really wish we could find some coverage of this as it could shed some light on Massa's crash and what actually caused it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
Perhaps Lewis was just still pumped up, and felt he had been given short shrift by the Stewards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumbo
End of the day, once he calmed down, he apologised.
Remember Vettel and Webber at Turkey 2010? Immediately out of the car Seb does the 'loopy' sing with his fingers to suggest Mark was mad? He knows full well Mark is not mad, and he also knew that Mark did not deviate from his line........
In a subsequent interview on reflection, he backtracked and said he'd never deliberately turn in on a competitor - suggesting it was his 'mistake'.
Water under the bridge.......
If it was a lack of front-end grip, you'd expect Massa to run wide on the corner immediately before the tunnel, thus allowing Lewis to get up the inside......Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
That would also explain why he went out onto the Marbles so easily in the tunnel. But if he felt something had broke on the car the corner before the tunnel or he knew he had lost grip, one would expect he'd have backed off knowing he couldn't possibly defend against Hamilton, or take the tunnel at normal speed, but it looked as though he was defending his position...Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
It was either a DFN or a penalty for him, it ended with the latter.Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
I'm just glad that this incident didn't involve Webber and Vettel as given my Red Bull fandom and complete dislike of Webber I wouldn't be able to give any objective statement concerning the matter. This is probably the first time i've been of the opinion that Lewis was just not in the right place in his head during a race and took stupid risks and went beyond normal racing moves. Was a real shame as I thought he was on fire in Catalunya the race before and really was showing himself to be the Lewis of 07/8 again something that I felt has been missing the last 2 yrs (even tho the car may have had an impact on that)Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
One of the "movements" was to follow the kink in the start finish straight..... Should Pastor just have crashed into the wall to let Lewis through?????Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
What is it with SOME Lewis fans who just seem to think that people should get out of his way? Lewis was aiming at a piece of track that was going to become kerb and Maldonado needed to let him through, he was not even alonside Massa and Massa is just meant to let him through. Get a grip people and just admit that Hamilton did wrong....
In F1 you don't just 'hope' the other drivers get out of the way, because, being a competition it does not work like that. You have to make the move, and make it stick. Sadly, it requires the other party to not turn in on you and expect to be able to class it as a 'blocking move'Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
I love how adamant some people are that Lewis DID do wrong, ABSOLUTELY, 100%, wake up, get a grip, blah, blah, blah when neither Domenicali or Sam Michael have pointed their finger at Lewis. They have the full license to just lay it on him, but for some reason they held back. Is it because they're aware their drivers MAY be at fault as well, to a lesser extent? I mean Marko Helmut said more about a driver in his own team after the Vettel-Webber clash after Turkey 2010 than Stefano and Sam have so far about a driver that doesn't drive for them.
Also, these same Lewis detractors have so far conveniently ignored any and all evidence that the two incidents MIGHT, just MIGHT be racing incidents, especially the pictures. The incident with Massa, yes, Lewis was way too overeager, but if someone in their right mind can actually blame Lewis 100% for the Maldonado incident, then I don't know how much about racing do they really know. Sadly, when there's this much bias and hatred involved, along with passion, things are only gonna go round in circles.
This is the unfortunate case as can be seen clearly by Daniel's postQuote:
Originally Posted by X-ecutioner
"Get a grip people and just admit that Hamilton did wrong.... " Yet he ignores all the evidence. This is the case with all the people in this thread. I put a post up last night which gives a clear second by second account of what happened and what Lewis's and Maldonado's options were at each point and nobody even bothered replying to it because they know they are wrong. If they were right they'd be able to reply with evidence to counteract my argument but they couldn't.
Bagwan fell back on comments such as:
It's all rather amusing really. It continually amazes the depths of denial people will go to in order to not have to admit they are wrong.Quote:
Daniel , I'm confused now , too .
I can't figure out why two former drivers , now commentators , in that clip of the incident , immediately decided it was Lewis's fault . It seemed they thought it was obvious .
And , then that former driver , Allan McNish , acting as steward thought so , too .
Tomorrow night I'm going to sit back and read over this thread with popcorn.
Brundle , Coulthard , and McNish . I count three guys who agree with me there .Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
You should learn how to count .
I gave you a good explanation of why I believe Lewis to be at fault in the incident , before I referred you to those three guys .
You should learn how to read .
Lewis knew where Pastor was .
Pastor knew Lewis was back there , and moved in to show his intentions .
Lewis didn't get the message , and tried to force his way through .
But , you can't intimidate a driver who can't see you .
You didn't see Maldonado taking any avoidance move before they came together , did you ?
I take issue with this statement - because Lewis was already alongside Maldonado when Pastor started turning in to protect his line at the corner. I see it as Pastor defending the corner too late - shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted if you like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
You should learn to remember what you write in a post AND connect the dots to what I was referring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
To give an accurate account of what actually happened I've modified your post in quotes. Fixed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
Yes, yes I did see Maldonado cut across Lewis and give him nowhere to go.
Have a nice day .Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
And , be sure to tell all your friends that you have won this debate with me .
That's a cop out Baggy, very poor show. You can do better'n that???Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
Teach me how to win a debate in which your opponent sometimes doesn't read your words , or disregards them , and other times just blatantly changes them to make it look like you agree .Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
The Black Knight does not agree with my analysis of this situation .
I can accept that .
I didn't say he won this debate , only that he can tell his friends that he did .
Thank you for your encouragement .
It's not that I didn't read your words, I was correcting them. You said "Pastor knew Lewis was back there" which is clearly incorrect. This suggests he was behind him somehow, whereas can be clearly seen from the video he was alongside him. I'm struggling to accept that you grasp exactly what happened in the crash or have seen or more than once on TV during the BBC coverage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
I see your words but they don't make sense as per the incident.
Ok, I'll come at it from another angle. Please go back to the post I wrote last night where I posted a clip from YouTube. Can you please watch that clip and tell me at what point in seconds you believe that Hamilton should have backed off and where he should have gone from there in order to not hit Maldonado?
Pastor was ahead of Lewis at all times going into the corner - at no point in time in any of the shots was lewis any closer than halfway up the side of pastor and that was when he hit pastor having gone over the ripple strip
have a look - lewis has his front wing well back of pastor's front wheel when pastor started moving across along the line he had been setup to take the corner.
I don't suppose anybody here know the definition of a racing incident?
*grabs coat*
I'd imagine he was, otherwise I'm sure, despite how hell bent ye are on blaming Lewis for something that wasn't his fault, that even ye could not accept that it was Hamilton's fault. There comes a point where a driver is alongside his opponent enough to attempt to outbrake him. Hamilton was well within this zone. In fact, we've all seen overtaking maneouvres which have been pulled off with cars further back than Lewis. Why? Because if a car is trying to outbrake you the last thing you do is throw your car in front of him. We've seen this plenty of times in the past. Turn one in Montreal is a typical example of it, where in every race we see cars give each other room. Maldonado should have done this too. Given Lewis room and drove around him if he could, otherwise concede the position. If when trying to overtake it is simply Ok for a car to turn in on you then there would be no overtaking in F1, no one would try it because it would just end up in a crash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumbo
Again I ask you, at what point in the video I posted yesterday do you think Hamilton should have backed off and where should have have gone from there?
Smartass :p :Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
Nice bit of vid. I was reserving judgement on that one 'till I had a better look at it. So Hamilton had an excellent pass on Schumacher, Pulled a dodgy one on Massa, then tried the Schumacher move on Maldonado, and still almost (would have without the 3RD block put on him) made it far enough alongside after being illegally blocked only for Maldonado to punt himself off the front of Lewis' car.Quote:
Originally Posted by X-ecutioner
So IMO, Hamilton made 2 good moves and 1 bad one.
Is it so, every other driver should be afraid of Lewis and move out of his way to victory. For sure he belives it, and a big shunk of his fans.
Pastor knew Lewis was behind him down the whole straight .Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
He judged that Lewis would not make the attempt , or at least back out of it .
He judged it this way as he was in a car width from the ideal line .
He also turned in when he did because of his position .
He clearly would not have turned in had he known or expected Lewis to be there . That would be stupid .
Lewis was not in his line of sight until it was a forgone conclusion that they would collide .
Unless of course , you think he should have been looking in his mirrors , instead of watching where he was going .
It was simply too late .
And , Pastor couldn't see him .
If it's really necessary , I will try to look at your video evidence again(later , when I have the time) and try to point to where his last moment to change his mind was .
I don't know how it makes things any clearer , but , it would have been before he attempted to get alongside .
And , Tumbo has it right when he states "lewis has his front wing well back of pastor's front wheel when pastor started moving across along the line he had been setup to take the corner."
He attempted , but never got far enough in to intimidate Pastor into avoidance .
Fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
Can I then ask you how it was that the Shoe did see Lewis, in what can reasonably be described as, almost identical situations?
If a driver does not have his mirrors thus positioned to provide coverage of the periphery for just such situations so that he can make an informed judgement as to the position of the car behind/beside/passing/being passed, then he needs to get that sorted PDQ.
It reminds me very much of my Law days, apply the reasonableness test as set out in the Cunningham/Cauldwell cases.
I personally think it is reasonable to assume that Pastor did know a pass was being made, but was reckless in that he chose to turn in regardless and suffer the consequences - stay ahead or collide.
Pastor and the shoe ran into the identical corner , but they did not enter in identical ways .Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
The shoe entered wide and on line , and from there it was possible to give room , and still not whack the wall , as he showed .
It was smart , as giving lots of room made the move from Lewis all the more predictable , even if it was predictable to begin with .
There was a time when Michael had the reputation to force an issue like this , and "bully" through , knowing there was every chance he would go for a gap that sometimes didn't exist yet , but he , in that car , is not seen as a threat any more .
But , Pastor gave him a clue right away that he was in defensive mode .
He entered tight , but not tight enough to intimidate Lewis .
I expect , both being unrepentent about it , that we will see more argy-bargy between them .
Pastor will make his intentions even clearer , and Lewis will try harder .
I don't see either as really reckless .
Pastor made a bad assumption , thinking he had intimidated Lewis .
And , vice versa , to a degree .
It is , though , the responsibility of the guy behind to make the pass safely .
You've gotta let the other guy know you're there .
If you aren't sure he can see you , you shouldn't stick your nose in .
Yeah, but how come Shoe saw it, Pastor was clueless? Inexperience or recklessness?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
You say Pastor made his defence (weaving) but he still left t'door open.....
I never made mention of mistakes in my comment regarding Lewis of the last 2yrs - if you can show me where I did i'm happy to agree w/ ur statement - rather I made mention of the Lewis who we saw in 07/08; this includes all aspects from his interviews, to his demenour, to his performances. Lewis had a good season last yr but there was that extra spark missing which I think until Monaco we have seen back again this yr. The McLaren is easily the 2nd best car in the field and not far off the Red Bull; yet RBR still have that edge and when Vettel is 'on' can clearly hold Lewis off (as seen in the Spanish GP). You will also notice that I made mention of the possiblity that it could have been the car too blame for the 09/10 seasons........unsure what i've missed for the Lewis brigade to take issue w/ that statement as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
I think this was simply a racing incident. Hamilton went for a gap that was closing and he had to know that the only way it was going to work was if Maldonado effectively conceded defeat before they even reached the corner. Maldonado didn't concede and the passing attempt went pear-shaped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shifter
Maldonado had to know Hamilton was back there but chose to go for the appex anyway, perhaps thinking Hamilton had abandoned the passing attempt. I don't think Maldonado can be criticsed too harshly because Hamilton was probably in his blind spot by the time they collided.
As I say, a racing incident and I wouldn't have thought it out of order if Hamilton wasn't penalised. The fact that this was the second time in the race that Hamilton had collided while attemting to pass may have affected the stewards decision.
This is related, and may be a useful guide for the principle involved here:
New driving code of conduct for V8s - Speedcafe
It outlines new passing procedures that underline the car’s B pillar as the strict passing point that an overtaking car must achieve at the approach, apex and exit of any corner.
Effectively the B-Pillar on an F1 car is that point at which cockpit meets engine cover at the rollover hoop. I don't think that Lewis' front wheel ever passed that point and therefore no effective pass was ever made.
Since the fault of accidents is almost always incumbent on the following car, then this accident was Lewis' fault; the video hasn't changed my opinion of that.
+1 to this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
Thank you for being the first person to finally explain the overtaking maneuver properly from the side of those that believe Hamilton to be wrong. It's a shame we had to go 500 posts before getting to this stage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
This leaves one remaining question, did Pastor know Lewis was alongside him? You have a fair enough point about Maldonado and the possibility that he felt he had intimidated Lewis. I don't know how he ever possibly have thought he could intimidate Lewis Hamilton by moving his car a little over to the right, so I don't feel this is the case at all but I can see where you're coming from in reaching this conclusion.
If he didn't know that Lewis was alongside him then there is something wrong with his wing mirrors. Maybe he just didn't notice them, or maybe he has very bad peripheral vision to say he wasn't able to see the big red wing of the McLaren just behind his front right wheel, this is all a possibility but if he didn't even have wing mirrors positioned in a way that he can't see if he is being overtaken then it is also his fault. It is his responsibility to position his mirrors correctly, otherwise they are rendered useless.
I agree with this adding that it is also the responsibility of the guy in front to know what is around him and to not cut the other guy off. It was discussed in F1 years ago that you must give the other guy room, you can't simply cut across and block him off after he has committed to the overtake. You're right, it would be stupid for Maldonado to cut across Lewis knowing he was there, but that's exactly what it was unfortunately - just plain stupid because I simply can't fathom how he couldn't have realised Lewis was going for that move after Lewis being alongside him, it doesn't make sense.Quote:
It is , though , the responsibility of the guy behind to make the pass safely .
You've gotta let the other guy know you're there .
If you aren't sure he can see you , you shouldn't stick your nose in .
There are two people involved in an overtaking maneuver. The overtaker, in this instant Lewis, positioned his car alongside Pastor's and made sure he knew he was there. That is all Lewis had to do, at that point he has let the other guy know that he was alongside him.
It is the responsibility of the person being overtaken then to make it as hard as possible for the following car to overtake them without pushing them off the track or trying to chop the front of their car off. Pastor, unfortunately, didn't do this.