I don't like the guy but all my respect for not being a hypocrite about it... like Horner, Withmarsh and some fanboys are...Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderbolt
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I don't like the guy but all my respect for not being a hypocrite about it... like Horner, Withmarsh and some fanboys are...Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderbolt
Eh? I really do fear for my own sanity sometimes, reading this forum. :\Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Devote
So presumably you'd have no problem if a team turned up in Hungary with a 3-litre turbocharged engine?
The teams have an input on the rulemaking process, and yes maybe one could argue that not every rule in the FIA's rulebook is perfect. But once you pay your entry fee and sign on the dotted line, you agree to conduct yourself by those rules whether you like them or not.
You simply cannot have teams deciding which rules they wish to adhere to - that would be anarchy.
:dozey:
well.. you're wrong. Hamilton proved you should break the rules where the penalty doesn't fit the crime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Brockman
By the way, do these words from Luca di Montezemolo basically admit race-fixing? Ferrari are going to have a tough time arguing to the WMSC that they were innocent after their president's latest outburst:
Source: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85587Quote:
"I simply reaffirm what I have always maintained, which is that our drivers are very well aware, and it is something they have to stick to, that if one races for Ferrari, then the interests of the team come before those of the individual.
"In any case, these things have happened since the days of Nuvolari and I experienced it myself when I was Sporting Director, in the days of Niki Lauda and not just then."
Are you talking about overtaking the safety car? That was against the rules, and rightly he was punished for it. As it happens the timing meant he escaped lightly, but nevertheless he broke a rule and was punished.Quote:
Originally Posted by eu
Our friend is arguing that you can arbitrarily pick and choose which rules you obey, provided you think the rule is unjust. Down that path madness lies.
Anyway, all this "interests of the team" guff from Luca. How many points do you score for a 1-2 as opposed to a 2-1? :p
Dave just a question for you...what's the difference between what happent on Sunday and what happent in Hockenheim in 2008 between Lewis and Kovalainen ?
I can answer that for you. Kovalainen wasn't as pissed off as Massa was. Oh, and $100,000.Quote:
Originally Posted by pino
Simple. Lewis was being held up by a team mate who would only go on to finish 5th. Heikki knew that if he let Lewis go, the Englishman had a chance to hunt down the guys in front and gain more points for both himself and the team. Hamilton went on to win the race, while Heikki's P5 was evidence that he didn't have the pace of his team mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by pino
After the race there was no protest, and no investigation. Other teams, and the stewards, did not believe there was a case to answer. There was no evidence ever put forward that it was anything other than Heikki's decision.
When Massa let Alonso past they were 1st and 2nd. They literally could not improve on this, so any suggestion that it was for the good of the team is a smokescreen by Luca di Montezemolo. If they'd even been 2nd and 3rd, and Alonso could have been freed up to fight for the win, I'd have no problem with their move.
PinoQuote:
Originally Posted by pino
I have no doubt that Heikki made a bit of room for Lewis on that day. Now, it might have been that the team had a word with him before the race and said "don't hold Lewis up" or it might be that decided to let his team mate past as he knew it would disadvantage them both if he tried to hold onto it.
The fact is that nobody came on the radio moaning about a rediculous situation and the team didn't clearly give as close to a direct order as is possible.
Team orders are something that will subtly happen in the background. What we saw on Sunday was the sport being brought into disrepute again and the worlds media exposing it as a sham.
As I have said previously, it is not just breaking the rules of the sport but I think is a criminal act as well.
Indeed - Luca's recent comments on the web site are digging a nice hole, showing up the comments made by certain team members immediately after the race that it was not a team order.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Brockman
Everyone who has claimed that the no team orders rule is stoopid is correct. It is a stoopid rule in the way it is written.
The rule needs to be either removed, or something better put in place to ensure that, while teammates still both have mathemetical chances at the title, the team cannot influence the result. If evidence can be shown that the driver alone used his discretion, then so be it.
The rule as it stands was put in place to stop the blatant race manipulation that we saw on Sunday and in 2002 at both Indy and Austria.
The fact that Ferrari have done it again, is what has got up so many peoples noses.
A race should be a race. Let the better driver win by proving he is the better driver.
Alonso could have passed Massa, if he had remained behind Massa in the fast corner, and then drafted by up to the braking point at the next corner.
But, he clearly lacks either racecraft or the mental ability to be patient for the right moment.
Now, when teammates work together for the team because one no longer has a mathematical chance for the WDC, then history has shown that the rulemakers will make exceptions. And as intelligent people, the viewer can understand the process and the rationale.
But the events of Hockenhein 2010 were shameful. They did not need to be, and that is the point.
Just like Alonso was being held by a driver that was only x on the wdc table. I know you know this but I'm going to say it anyway: despite having a wcc teams care more about one of their driver getting the wdc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Brockman
Well, mathematically both drivers had a chance at winning the WDC. It's not as if Alonso was 100 points ahead, and it was impossible for Massa to win the championship.Quote:
Originally Posted by eu
Say what you will about Mclaren, they did allow Button to make that risky move at turn 1 at Turkey, and then Hamilton to make that bonkers move a corner or two later. Red Bull also sat and saw their two drivers crash into each other and throw the race away. All Alonso did was have a big whinge to uncle Stefano after Massa blocked him, and Ferrari gave him his toy some 30 odd laps later. Blecch, hardly a racer. :down:
Or...he knew the call would come and he would be given the win.Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
I do wonder if there might be something in Massa & Alonso's contracts which said the team would put their efforts behind whoever was leading the championship at a certain point in the season. Perhaps that point was around the European/British GP's.
Interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
<unfounded conjecture> It would certainly make sense of Alonso's "this is ridiculous" radio call when he was following Massa, if he was expecting the Brazillian to jump out of the way. It could also explain the tone of Rob Smedley's message, if he was annoyed at having to remind Felipe-baby of his contractural obligations in front of the whole world.</unfounded conjecture>
Nurburgring 07 brought him up worthiness of experience. He only knew that Massa is a defensive driver. Team didn't call Alonso to get pass Massa or anything. In this critical point in the standing points all drivers are supposed to put aside their own interest to support whomever has bigger possibility challenging title. In many races Alonso let faster drivers to get pass him. Besides leading in points, the fact Alonso drove faster, there is no reason to call something into question whether or not he won the race on his own strength... ;)
Good news - Bernie supporting the elimination of team orders.
I'd say it is the beginning of the end of that stupid rule and Ferrari's proper actions on Sunday will have triggered it.
Incorrect. Massa was matching Alonso lap for lap. On sevral occassions Massa lost time badly during the race with traffic, with the one backmarker allowing Alonso to try and make a pass at Turns 6 & 7. I have the race on tape and watched it again last night. Massa had faster average lap times than Alonso up to the point that Alonso was let past.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Devote
He was losing time - Alonso also had to move through traffic.Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
Massa's lead went from 3 seconds to gearbox close - that is SLOWER and Alonso passed him.
No matter how you wish to spin it - it is not possible for someone to be quicker AND be caught.
Just look and you will also see that Alonso's quickest lap on lap 66 and Massa's also on lap 66 was quicker than Massa.
But this is a technical matter - the point is moot in my view.
Even if Alonso was 10 seconds behind Massa - it is Ferrari's right and the proper traditon of motor racing always, that the number 2 driver [Massa] move aside for the number 1 driver [Alonso] at a team's instruction.
If the team orders rule had not been in place on Sunday would F1 fans have been any happier with what Massa was told to do?Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Devote
I suspect this might be the beginning of the end for article 39.1 of the F1 sporting regulations, but the rule was introduced for a reason.
How does F1 balance the wish of the teams to run their teams as they see fit with the public's wish not to see manipulated or staged results?
Rules are rules, surely? There is no room for interpretation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Devote
Is this a rule? An unwritten rule? Perhaps Rob Smedley and Felipe Massa felt that it wasn't right and that it ought not be adhered to?Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Devote
Another bad association for Alonso, what a shame. He may be a former WDC but surely the public now see him in a very different light after his various brushes with controversy.
No no no. Yet again you're muddying the waters by confusing what should be in the rules with what's actually in the rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Devote
Maybe it is a daft rule, that's certainly a debate which should be heard. But, as it stood on Sunday afternoon, that WAS the rule and Ferrari breached it. They don't have a "right" to pick and choose which rules they wish to obey, whatever you may think.
2006 US Grand Prix (held in July) - Massa leads the first stint but then gives up the lead after the first round of pit stops. Everyone knew this would happen. Massa happily obliged because the switch over was unbrazen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Brockman
Where was the outcry?
You'll have to forgive me but I don't have a clear recollection of the race. If I get a spare couple of hours I'll dig out the DVD.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
People didn't feel conned :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
IIRC Massa had some kind of mechanical issue which slowed him. Genuine or not? Who knows!
Both you and Dave have to try harder to convince me :p : I still think that what Ferrari did was exactly what other team have done for years (Ferrari included), so I really don't understand all this complaining and all these threads against Ferrari...but that's probably because I am a tifoso ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by skc
I think it was because it was not so blatant and in your face, but here we have a driver who does not have the negative fan base of Freddie, CLEARLY being told to move over on the one year anniversary of his spring incident.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
It really goes back to, if the violation is not so clear and your face, it is okay.
Given Luca's outburst, it is now even more blatant and in your face.
Luca is saying Luca-Ferrari will only obey a rule that Luca-ferrari finds acceptable and in the best interests of the team as they deem those interests to be.
Otherwise, screw you. So if Ferrari finds a way to open up an engine and fix /replace parts, in such a manner as to replace/repair the seals so that no one can at the FIA can detect the repairs or breaking of the seals, then if Luca deems it in the best interests of the team, then they will do it.
After all, it has always been the tradition of the Ferrari team for many many years, that when an engine needs fixing, they fix it..... :rolleyes:
Not even Ron Dennis would have been this much in the face as Luca has been.
So the FIA needs to slap down Luca hard for violating a rule without any remorse or apology, with the same kind of righteous vengence dumped upon Mac (who was saying sorry at the time of punishment), and put Freddie back behind Massa--which the stewards lacked the gonads to do.
Otherwise, Luca, like any dictator bully, will go wild, running over any anything he wishes.
The only question is whether little Todt will be able able to go face to face with Luca.....somehow, I think this is part of why Luca is so in the face right now, becuase they actually had some fear of maX and his whip, fear that they have none of from their former employee
So what will the FIA do about this????
Strike down the rule to appease Luca????
but the rule was there so fans --and even arguably racers themselves---would not feel cheated by seeing a manipulated result, and would know that the one who won, deserved it by being in front based on merit and not some manipulation.....
Alternatives?? How about a ban on all radio communcications? after all, how did Clark, Moss, Stewart, Brabham et al, win so many many races without someone always whispering in their ear, push push, harder, try to concentrate, remember we are only two seconds ahead, come on, you can do it.....
You know I respect your opinion and that I'm not one of these Ferrari "haters". I am a motorsport fan, pure and simple, and enjoy a friendly rivalry with supporters of other teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by pino
I don't want to see Ferrari thrown out and agree that other teams have used team orders. However, the whole reason the team orders business was brought in well known and Ferrari did exactly the same last weekend. It looks wrong and unfair. It's damaging for the sport and turns fans off.
The rule may be wrong but it IS a rule that must be seen to be adhered to. Other teams use team orders in a subtle way but only Ferrari decide to splash it over the front pages.
To be a Tifosi, you must also be a motorsport fan otherwise what are you supporting? What we saw on Sunday damages the sport.
As it damages the sport then please everyone that are not going to watch the next F1 race due to what happened last weekend please raise your hands... I suspect there are not many. And the argument that it is all right to do it at the end of the season. Well if you are against the rule then why make exceptions at the end of the season. By that time it's probably already too late. The best example is the proud joint second position of Lewis and Fernando when Kimi beat them by one point... now isn't that a stupid situation to be in as a team principal? Explain to the potential sponsors that our guys want to race that's why they haven't managed to win the championship. And the current issue arose only because Massa had a new contract and thought that there is no need to play the role that he was given prior to the race. Fernando was faster than Felipe the whole weekend and there is no point to argue about this. Whether he was fast enough to overtake is another question. I would personally rather bend the rules than look outright stupid (Red Bull drivers crashing into each other).
Because Massa was quite happy to do it that time round.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
We've seen that if you're unhappy with the decision the driver realises its 'a team gain but take some pain' eg. Rubens in Austria 2002 and DC in Melbourne 1998 as Brundle alluded to the PR BS on the BBC F1 Forum.
In any event, this is clearly a fan rule as skc says.........not a rule because the team bosses want it.
If the team bosses were to be hooked to lie detectors, notwithstanding Horner's BS public relations attempt at saying his drivers are free to race and all the other managers mouthing off, the results would be NOT ONE team boss would have a rule that even slightly hinders them from telling the drivers exactly what to do and when.
all team bosses want to be :vader:
Was it as blatant as last Sunday?Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
Did Massa complain? Did Smedley complain? Did Todt run away like Domenicali?
Was it a slap in the face of all the fans?
Did they destroy their driver 1 year after he almost died in one of their cars?
You don't seem to grasp the deepness of what happened last Sunday.
Agreed, he does not fear Jean.Quote:
Originally Posted by markabilly
Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Agrees on everything except the first sentence. At the last lap Felipe slowed down to almost zero speed and let MS thrue, anyway, it was only four cars on the track, a farse.
:laugh: This is your explanation? Youīve said before they should be punished for not hiding it well enough and now this? It wasnīt a breach of the rules because Massa didnīt complain and Todt didnīt run? I doubt Todt can run at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Perhaps I should explain you people that here in Romania we have a very sick saying. Itīs something like this: the uncaught thief is just an honest business man. I think itīs quite clear Ioan is very fond of this saying.
It wasnīt a slap in the MSī fanboyīs faces. Thatīs actually the only difference and thatīs what makes your stance hypocritical
???Quote:
Originally Posted by Mia 01
The change took place during pit stops AFAIK.
There is one reason why I left your Romania 12 years ago, because that saying is true and applies to half of the population.Quote:
Originally Posted by eu
You can continue enjoying the saying and the people.
Could be wrong, but I remeber it differenly.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
FA is proud of his win this weekend, no regrets.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85605
What were you expecting from such a monument of self-righteousness?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mia 01