The initial price doesnt matter, they can sell it even for 1 euro, but what about the maintenance costs?
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The initial price doesnt matter, they can sell it even for 1 euro, but what about the maintenance costs?
Does R5 allow bodywork modifications? ie the maximum width in the rules. Does that mean:
1. road car bodywork can be modified to this max width
2. road car must be no wider than this as standard
Sure it can be modified although it's not explicitly written in this public document. No car in B-class is even close to such width so that such rule would have no meaning.
Toyota will return to rallying with an entry-level Yaris which will make its first public outing in Rally Germany later this month.
The TMG Yaris R1A has been developed as an entry-level machine priced at approximately €22,500.
Toyota said the car will be able to compete in the World Rally Championship under the R1A regulations once it is homologated by the FIA before the end of the year.
The Yaris will run as 'zero car' duriung Rallye Deutschland and it will be driven by Isolde Holderied.
"It is a great thrill for TMG to return to rallying, a discipline in which we enjoyed a great deal of success in the past," said Toyota Motorsport president Yoshiaki Kino****a.
"The TMG Yaris R1A is a completely different project compared to our WRC past; it is an affordable but exciting car which makes rallying's major events accessible to a whole range of participants.
"We have already received numerous enquiries about this car so we know there is a huge appetite in the rally world for a new Toyota; I hope this is the start of a new rally dynasty at TMG."
Looks very expensive for me, especially for a new car full of "initial problems".
Maybe I'm just late to the table here, but I'm a little confused - what are the R-class regulations, and how will they affect the existing structure of the WRC? Are they additional clases alongside the WRC, S2000, PWRC and WRC Academy, or are the R-classes a complete restructing of the category?
This sounds like something Wikipedia should have a page on, but I cannot find anything on it anywhere on the internet.
A small guide :)
PWRC, SWRC or Academy are not car classes. These are championships eligible for particular cars.
PWRC is eligible for N4, R3, R2 and R1, N3, N2, N1 cars.
Academy is set only for Fiesta R2 in Academy spec. (not full R2 I think)
SWRC is set for S2000 either the "old" 2.0 N/A or the "new" 1.6 Turbo
WRC is set for S2000 1.6T cars with additional WRC Kit (larger turbo restrictor, lighter flywheel, big rear wing, different front bumper and front asphalt brakes, thinner windows)
R classes have been out for a couple of years and largely used especially in former JWRC (if we speak about WRC events). They shall be the future class system when all cars of old gr.A/N system are gone or implemented
R5 - newly defined class to be a successor of the S2000 2.0 N/A in regional and national championships (1.6T, 4x4 Kit Cars), for some time its working name was R4T (examples Fabia, Fiesta, 208 in development)
R4 - further tuned N4 cars (lightened, new suspension) (examples Evo IX, Evo X, Impreza)
R3 - top 2WD class in gr.R system; several options possible
- R3C - 2.0 N/A (examples Clio R3, Civic R3)
- R3D - 2.0 Diesel (example Punto R3D)
- R3T - 1.6 Turbo (example DS3 R3T, 207 R3T, Fiesta R3T in development)
R2 - less modifications, 2WD; again several options possible
- R2C - 2.0 N/A (no car homologated)
- R2B - 1.6 N/A (example C2 R2, Fiesta R2, Fabia R2, Twingo R2, 208 R2 to be homologated soon)
R1 - least modifications, 2WD, basically almost stock cars
- R1A - 1.4 N/A (example Yaris R1 to be homologated soon)
- R1B - 1.6 N/A (example Twingo R1, Fiesta R1, DS3 R1)
You where faster Mirek, but anyway I post my own version.
Afaik R-group cars replace A & N group cars. I believe that no new group A & N homologations are allowed anymore, only upgrades to the existing ones. Btw, if no new A & N homologations are not allowed, from which year did this happen?
The main philosophy with R-group cars are that every part that can be replaced or modified must be homologated, even springs and dampers that are free in group A & N. There are also some kind of cost control for the parts.
Sporting regulations: FIA Rally Championships
2012 WRC Sporting Regulations and Appendices (english) - publié le: 15.06.2012: Classes in WRC rallies on page 13.
2012 Regional Rallies Championships Sporting Regs and Appendices (english) - published on: 09.03.2012: Classes in regional championship rallies on page 11.
Technical regulations: International Sporting Code & Appendices
Article 260: R1 (1400 cc – 1600 cc NA engine, R2 (16000 cc – 2000 cc NA engine) and R3 (2000 cc NA engine)
Article 260D: R3D (2000 cc diesel engine) and R3T (1600 cc turbo engine)
R2 and R3 regulations are very similar, some minor difference in the modification of the body shell and suspension (I don’t know what these differences are). R1 is almost a standard car.
The biggest difference between R2 and R3 is the gearbox, 5-gear gearbox for R2 and 6-gear gearbox for R3. R1 has a standard gearbox.
So the R1, R2 and R3 describe the tuning grade and the A, B and C the engine capacity.
Article 261:
R5 is a new member of the R-group and is valid from the beginning of 2013. Peugeot has said that they will unveil their R5 in September.
R5 is based on a R3T car with the addition of 4WD with a 5-gear gearbox.
So, if I understand correctly, Group A and Group N are being discontinued, with the R-class cars serving as their replacements, and depending on their classification, R-class cars will be elegible to enter certain championships.
Right. I think I've got it. It does make sense; I've felt that some of the various championships have needed cleaning up for a while now, but it's not the most-pressing issue facing the sport.
Our team (ALM RUSSIA / DMACK RUSSIA / Academy Rally) has built first VW Polo R1. This car will take part in "DMACK CUP" series in Russia.
Info about tests
Photos from first tests
Video
On-board video
Is it homologated?
No. This car will be homologated in Russia (for national championship & national cup). But may be VW will homologate it ;) We will see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
I was told there is Polo R2 in development in Germany. That's why I'm asking. I must admit I don't know anything more than rumors.
Great work! But what's missing is the minimum weight of cars in each of the classes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
R5: 1200 kg
RGT: 1200 to 1400; affects air restrictor's size
R4: 1350 (??)
R3
- T: 1080
- D: 1150
- C: 1080
R2
- C: 1080
- B: 1030
R1
- B: 1030
- A: 980
... compared to 1200 kg for S2000, and S2000-based (WRC and RRC) cars.
I don't want to browse FIA website now but I think that R4 is minimum 1310 kg and R3T is minimum 1120 kg.
I've double checked and it's 1300 kg for R4 (1350 was for N4) and 1080 for R3T.
Also, not sure if that has been brought up already, but from 2013 the minimum weight of the car with crew (driver + co-driver + the full equipment of the driver and co-driver) will be the minimum weight w/o crew + 160 kg (compared to + 150 at the moment).
Read some news on a rally site that FIA are changing the naming convention on the classes and championships in WRC for 2013.
I guess this might be something the Rally Commission will inform on, but have not seen any official statement from FIA, have anyone else?
This is a google translation from what I read on Ericsson Motorsport http://www.emotorsport.se
http://translate.google.com/?vi=c&hl=en
Yeah, I was asking about this the other day. I don't think the FIA will say anything until the promoter issue is sorted out.
Had some issues on my iPad on moving translated stuff over, so had to move to the iMac.
Here is the full text:
Three factory cars and new classes, the FIA's rescue of the WRC series?
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/bilder/0.gif After several years with the now familiar classes PWRC and SWRC aiming FIA to replace them and start new classes, all because of the declining interest in several of the series - but also for the entire World Cup series, sat at the last meeting and discussed several news - if and when a change can come is uncertain - with some of the changes are expected as early as next year tells FIA.
New classes were just one of the points, dropping the now pre-nominated places for factory cars, allowing three cars to go under the team's flag and where the two top finishers at the finish counting points was one of the ideas. The idea a few years ago, was on the contrary that smaller cars for the teams would provide reduced costs - if the proposal goes through three cars become more the rule than the exception and suddenly rising costs again - which would not benefit either Ford or Citroen with ailing economy.
This proposal is something especially newcomer VW worked for, they have been talking about three cars with a well established, a driver right there under and a young driver under development. Add to that the local importer and reseller arte frame which is expected to launch towards the middle of next year.
New classes - WRC2, 3 & 4.
The currently named PWRC and SWRC series, Championship for production cars, Group N and Super2000 cars are expected to go to a new common class called WRC2. There, the two classes of counting points for each class, but go in the common table and only one champion crowned.
A series of two-wheel drive cars is expected, where the R1 to R3 cars under the name WRC3.Today's WRC Academy is expected in the future is called WRC4 and run just like today as a talent program execution and joint activities - while not run the entire race track.
The class that gets no place in WRC is as yet GT cars, the R-GT - likely will not this class put a heavy load for the series, when only local drivers are expected to attend sporadically and is seen more as an odd element than a World Series.
PS
Brother John: I must disagree with you in moving this here. The R Classes news i more of a tech thread, but this one is intended to discuss FIAs suggestions to beat the old WRC horse into life again! ;-)
@Sulland: I've also heard about that. ;)
If WRC2, WRC3 and WRC4 are genuine, then I think this will go a long way to fixing some of the problems in the series.
Someone the other day raised the point that the reduced coverage means it is difficult to form an emotional attachment to one driver. I understand this entirely - in Formula 1, I follow Jenson Button because he made his debut when I really started to watch the series full-time. He was a driver whose progress I could follow across his entire career trajectory.
Right now, the WRC, Super 2000 championship, Group N and WRC Academy are only loosely connected. There is no clear path from the lower tiers to the upper echelons, so it's very difficult to work out how people got to where they are. For example, take Daniel Oliveria - who is he? What has he done to justify a place in the WRC? I can't form any attachment to him because I have no idea who he is. But on the other hand, I can see that Elfyn Evans is experiecing success in the Academy, which makes it easier to form an attachment to him. And if there is a linear progressing from the Academy to the WRC, I can follow Evans' career more easily. From the sounds of things, the WRC2/3/4 proposal will do just this - success in WRC4 paves the way to WRC3.
As for three-car teams, I don't see it happening, though I think it would be great because it means more action. If the manufacturers are worried about costs, then perhaps they should invest in making cars for WRC2 and WRC3, and use the income to offset the cost of a third works car, though they would probably have to sell quite a few to make it viable.
It is not obligatory, if team can't afford it, they just won't do it, just like it was in 80's and 90'sQuote:
Originally Posted by Prisoner Monkeys
Reading Sulland's post, I got the impression that three-car teams were proposed, but rejected. That may have something to do with the translation.
That said, if three-car teams were to happen, I think Ford and Citroen would be pretty much obligated to field a third car - at least for their works teams - if Volkswagen did, since three cars would give VW an advantage in the points standings.
And, of course, all of this remains to be confirmed.
I hope 3 car rule comes through. All the teams have more than 2 cars already, Ford just adds a paying driver to their works team. (Just like the rest I guess).
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I so hope it does too. I always felt the WRC lost it way when the 3 car rule came through in 2004. Though it was in 2006 with all the customer teams it really became a problem (and then only because they were REPLACING, not adding to works teams) WRC jumped the shark around 2009 for me cos of the super-reliability and therefore hardly anyone winning. Very unrallylike.
Max Mosley, I hold you responsible for ruining the WRC.
I agree, but I suspect for different reasons - I think he neglected the WRC because he was so busy pissing in the pool that was Formula 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjbetty
Fortunately, Jean Todt recognises the importance of the WRC.
He recognises it but also does little or nothing. Whole season was ruined 'cos of TV comercial rights, etc.
I would welcome 3 car teams, it would mean more top drives so potentially more battles at top level. Competitionally a team with 2 good drivers wouldn't be be at a huge disadvantage to 3 car teams if the top 2 cars score so teams that don't want to run 3 cars aren't forced to.
This is from memory so I might be wrong but weren't 3rd cars banned as a cost cutting measure when WRC increased the calendar to 16 rounds? Also I seem to remember at the time teams said an extra car is not that much more expensive to run but that a larger calendar is a bigger problem.
Yes I clearly remember the teams saying that, but the FIA didn't listen. They also didn't listen to Jimmy Mcrae when he said the WRC would suffer without Colin. The 2 car rule was ridiculous as it also left Mcrae without a drive.Quote:
Originally Posted by seb_sh
But now I think of it, when the WRC really lost it for me was with Superrally, an utter joke when someone can retire and still score points, denying the privateers who so need the recognition, and who worked hard to stay on the road.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjbetty
My recollection of the problem which left Colin without a paid ride was down to one thing: excessively high demands for salary--what was it reported at the time? I think he was demanding £5 million and it was a long time since he'd been really hot...
Very odd I thought at the time that he says on camera "I'd do this for nuthin" but drops out when he can't get is 5 mil a year..
Yep. Pretty silly.Quote:
But now I think of it, when the WRC really lost it for me was with Superrally, an utter joke when someone can retire and still score points, denying the privateers who so need the recognition, and who worked hard to stay on the road.
Over here in Fortress America™ we had forever a system where you got 2 points in the "National Champignonskit" for every event you'd enter....I had a guy I helped building engines/gearbox/suspension who won our National 2wd non-turbo class and got support from Saab USA for a "new gen" 900 turbo and did everything himself---and had a string of like 10 DNFs and one crap result so he had 20 pts just for entering, and for the season "beat" several guys who had won rounds when the events were near for them but no other events..
DNFs beating anybody was insane, DNFs beating class wins......only in America.
But! "All" the fan-bois are used to just hitting the http://helen-lingard.com/wp-content/...set-button.jpg "so, like, whatever doood"
I couldn't agree more. The last fourteen posts (including this one) in the thread have nothing in common with the R classes talk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
I'm curious as to what your source is for this. I'm not doubting it by any means, but I can't seem to find anything online, and I'd like to read more if only to work on the 2013 season page over at Wikipedia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
As mentioned earlier, the source is Ericsson Motorsport, this -> link in particular.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prisoner Monkeys
Right, well, I can't use that on Wikipedia. It doesn't quote anyone at all, much less someone directly connected to the proposed regulation changes. It's also faily speculative, seeing as how it uses a question mark in the title.
But thank you for supplying the link anyway.
Back to R category talk then!
Any news on R cars? Or will they remain the forgotton classes in the WRC as the World Rally Cars are kept way ahead by the likes of a 29mm restrictor to strangle the R3T cars
Noo, don't start with that. You can put 50 mm restrictor on R3T cars and they will remain slower than WRC cars. I am willing to bet.Quote:
Originally Posted by navtheace
WRC is just a small piece of the rally world out there. A class doesn't need to win world championship rallies to be succesful (see N4 or S2000).Quote:
Originally Posted by navtheace
Peugeot R5 to be unveiled in Paris
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No we have just to wait and see what’s coming.
What exactly is the difference between RRC and R5? The simple answer is that the former is basically a WRC without the kit, and the latter is the newest FIA baby. But, technically-wise, they both have 1.6 turbo engines (RRC with 30 mm restrictor, R5 with 35??), although I'm assuming that R5's is production based, both are 4x4, share the same minimum weight (1200 kg), have five-gear sequential gearbox, no central differential, long travel suspension. If I'm not mistaken, widened wheel arches, and some small wings are allowed on R5 as well. Is the engine the only significant difference? Money-wise, FIA's limit on a R5 is 180k euros. Is that really half the price of a WRC/RRC? How're FIA going to keep the price within the limit this time? As far as I know, it didn't work that well for S1600 and S2000.
Thanks for the answers! :)
Sure not 35 mm restrictor, that would be like 340-350 Hp even under R3T engine tuning regulations ;) I heard about 32 mm (for that I assume around 280-290 Hp in case of engine otherwise similar with R3T). RRC/WRC have 6-speed gearbox, R5 probably 5-speed. Don't think it makes some significant difference in price. I guess that the main part of price difference shall be really done by the engine. No mandatory use of DI, no purpose-built blocks etc. They will sure apply some maximum price also for key components but in my opinion that depends a lot on lobbying of manufacturers. There's a lot of space for cutting the price down (just an example, S2000 driveshaft costs around 2000 Euro...).
Peugeot R5 to be presented in Paris in 2 weeks... joehoe!!!
Autonews Magazine » Rallye » La Peugeot 208 R5 sera dévoilée au Salon de Paris