Hamilton Stripped of Win - Official

I've to make one more post. :D

Here seems to be some talk whether Lewis was advantaged or not.
Well, Kimi was advantaged, because he was ahead. A driver ahead is in a more advantageous situation, don't you think so? As long as he stays there, he has an advantage. Kimi had all the cards to keep the lead, he should have taken the inside line into La Source and braked a bit more accordingly (it means later). Instead of this he entered the corner very cautiously and threw his advantage away. I maintain the opinion it was a poor defense by Kimi rather than an "inevitable pass" by Lewis due to his propitious track position.

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Originally Posted by jens

One more post.
"Conspiracy" has been a keyword at times. And the question, whether it exists, persists.

What we have to keep in mind is that stewards, FIA, and actually all the people involved in F1 are not emotionless robots, but are normal human beings like all of us. All of them have their own preferences, opinions, also sympathies and antipathies. It's in human nature. I don't know, what was the mood of the decisionmakers or what were they thinking, when they decided on this penalty at that particular moment, but hopefully the appeal will clarify this.

I'm a bit afraid though that the appeal will take place one race before the end of the season and the result of the appeal will turn out to be such, which will be more beneficial for the championship excitement...

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As long as we don't have a 'Champion for ?? days' - a la Markku Alen 1986, when Italian scrutineers threw the French Peugeot's out of San Remo - letting the Lancia's win. Later overturned.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

As far as I know, there is nothing to stop a team from appealing, except that since it was a drive-through penalty, there is normally no appeal for that.

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With all due respect I believe the stewards missed the opportunity to issue a drive through penalty when the chequered flag came down and the racing finished.

A drive through penalty is only relevant when a race is actually underway. To issue a drive through penalty after a race has finished is utterly ridiculous as it only truly penalises a points finisher.

In my opinion the stewards made a very, very bad call.

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Originally Posted by Whyzars

With all due respect I believe the stewards missed the opportunity to issue a drive through penalty when the chequered flag came down and the racing finished.

A drive through penalty is only relevant when a race is actually underway. To issue a drive through penalty after a race has finished is utterly ridiculous as it only truly penalises a points finisher.

In my opinion the stewards made a very, very bad call.

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So you are claiming that you can brake the rules during the last two laps, and because there is no time for a drive-through penalty, nothing shoudl happen? :eek:

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Originally Posted by Zico

I suspect you are correct... and if that indeed turns out to be the case... Im completely finished with any interest I had with F1.

Its a farce, I cant take it even semi-seriously any longer.

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Funny, many of us have been thinking that since LH's "lift" a year ago :s

I forgot to add, for those calling on Lauda's "authority", that this is the guy who (besides winning many many years ago when several forumers were not born) spun the Jaguar on the pitlane when he was set to "show the guys how it's done". And he didn't make wonders as a team-manager, either :mark:

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Originally Posted by Whyzars

With all due respect I believe the stewards missed the opportunity to issue a drive through penalty when the chequered flag came down and the racing finished.

A drive through penalty is only relevant when a race is actually underway. To issue a drive through penalty after a race has finished is utterly ridiculous as it only truly penalises a points finisher.

In my opinion the stewards made a very, very bad call.

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but what if the driver commits an offence during the last three laps? He could be able to go to the finish without even serving his penalty or, like Michael did at Silverstone (can't remember the year) and win the race by crossing the finish line in the pit (if that was what happened)

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Originally Posted by Mickey T

schumacher clearly breached the rules here (i'd love to see even tamburello and ioan argue that he didn't), gained an advantage by cutting the circuit and didn't get punished.

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In my view, the reason why MS was not punished is seen in the picture. De La Rosa is away of the racing line, leaving no room for MS. The question in yesterday's case is whether LH did not make the corner by lack of room or excess of speed.

Personally, I reckon that we can discuss this until we are all blue in the face and be none the wiser until the appeal is heard and the evidence released.

Niki Lauda backs Hamilton's win and claims he did nothing wrong.

However, I am uneasy that McLaren claim Lewis slowed down by 6 kph. (only).

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Yesterday once again restored my faith in the FIA as the only people suitable to run Formula One. If it wasn't for them, the typical bully-boy deceit and dishonest non-integrity based tactics of Ron Dennis's team would whitewash everything just as they have done the reactionary English media.

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http://www.gazzetta.it/Motori/Formul...ainglese.shtml

I refer you to the racial case of Pot vs Kettle giving people the right to make hypocritical statements without fear of retribution. It began as a civil rights case, as Kettle alleged that Pot "did not let Kettle work at his [Pot's] store solely for the colour of kitchenware".
As a result of this landmark case, people are allowed to make utterly ironic and hypocritical statements without fear of a tarnished reputation.

Italian newspapers apply as much spin as English ones. Prost suddenly became a hero in 1990 when he drove for La Scuderia as did Mansell (he was even called Il Leone by the Italian press).

Newspapers are there to sell... newspapers. :eek: If they can pander to the inherant jingoism and xenophobia of their readership in pursuit of ¥€$ then they will. There's nothing remarkable about that at all.

WHAT A DISGRACE!

I have been away all weekend therefore I tried to avoid finding out the results of the Belgian GP which I successfully did until I watched it this morning.

First I must say if this was the best race of the season it is saying something about the excitement of modern F1 as all but the last two laps were a complete snooze.

However, the final two laps were very eventful. Hamilton crossed the line first. Hard luck for Kimi. Fair enough. Race won.

It is only now that I have discovered Hamilton has been stripped of the race win in what is clearly a corrupt strategy of ensuring that the fight for the World Championship goes down to the final race.

I have not followed F1 as closely this year as I have taken the role as an impartial fan after last years shenanigans.

Now I will no longer follow F1 in 2008. What a load of bollocks!

In an attempt to increase the number of viewers watching the final few races of the season I am sure they have lost many.

Thank god the Sprint Cup Chase begins this week!

Massa offers a good opinion:

'"What Lewis did is the sort of thing that can happen," admits the Brazilian, "but I think he was maybe a bit too optimistic in thinking he could just hand back the position, albeit only partially to Kimi and then immediately try and pass him again.

"Incidents like this have often been discussed in the official driver briefings when it has been made absolutely clear that anyone cutting a chicane has to fully restore the position and also any other eventual advantage gained. If Lewis had taken the chicane correctly, he would never have been able to pass Kimi on the very short straight that follows it. That was my immediate opinion after seeing the replay. Maybe if Lewis had waited and tried to pass on the next straight, that would have been a different matter."'

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Originally Posted by tinchote

So you are claiming that you can brake the rules during the last two laps, and because there is no time for a drive-through penalty, nothing shoudl happen? :eek:

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No not at all. The stewards took too much time to make a decision in my opinion and missed their opportunity to issue a drive through penalty. Fair enough issue a penalty but its too late to issue a drive through penalty when the flag has dropped. By not dispensing their form of justice until after the race they removed any opportunity for the penalised driver to react and minimise the impact of the judgement.

Obviously you can't have drivers flouting the rules at the end of a race for the sake of a victory. Under these circumstances penalise, suspend or fine the drivers till they bleed but retroactively altering race results is probably not the way to go.

At worst this incident was a 10 place penalty at the next grid and could've been handled quite adequately by issuing that judgement. We must keep in mind that the race result would've been the same even if the 'offence' had not occurred.

If they believe that it needed an extra harsh penalty then make it 10 places at the next two grids. This is how I believe serious offences should be dealt with and especially for offences committed towards the end of races. When a penalty is issued it must be consistent with the offence, and, with the complexity of modern F1, this may require investigations which can't be completed on race day. Arbitrarily altering race results open's the door to suspicion and nothing will kill a sport faster than the public losing confidence in the integrity of its racing.

I do not believe that the penalty that has been handed down was balanced as it unfairly penalised a point scoring driver. This may not have been the intention but I think that it is the result as a lower placed would not have felt the same sting. In the case of Lewis Hamilton it was a doubly harsh punishment in that it also took a race win away from a young driver.

Just my opinion... :)

Well, it buggered my pickems :(

Lewis knows what he did. But the result is very good for Lewis. The iceman got pissed and ended with no points while lewis just went back a few. had lewis waited a couple of corners he would have been fine.

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Originally Posted by cosmicpanda

Massa offers a good opinion:

'"What Lewis did is the sort of thing that can happen," admits the Brazilian, "but I think he was maybe a bit too optimistic in thinking he could just hand back the position, albeit only partially to Kimi and then immediately try and pass him again.

"Incidents like this have often been discussed in the official driver briefings when it has been made absolutely clear that anyone cutting a chicane has to fully restore the position and also any other eventual advantage gained. If Lewis had taken the chicane correctly, he would never have been able to pass Kimi on the very short straight that follows it. That was my immediate opinion after seeing the replay. Maybe if Lewis had waited and tried to pass on the next straight, that would have been a different matter."'

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Constructive opinion ...

Massa's opinion is entirely understandable. He benefits if the result stands and as he not actually part of the process or the "incident", he has no responsibility.
From his perspective he is 8 points the richer, so hardly an "unbiased" view.

But he couldn'tve taken the chicane correctly - there was no room.

The "old guys in suits decide the results, instead of the competitors" argument is flat out ridiculous and childish. It happens in every sport time to time, F1 fans have been spoilt in that regard. That cannot be an excuse for letting someone get away with breaking the rules.

You can argue whether Lewis really broke the rules, but that's another argument.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Massa's opinion is entirely understandable. He benefits if the result stands and as he not actually part of the process or the "incident", he has no responsibility.
From his perspective he is 8 points the richer, so hardly an "unbiased" view.

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I wonder why are you saying that what Massa just stated is a biased opinion? Did you read what he said? What he's saying is stating FACTS not opinion (Would like to read the memo about the pilot's meeting when they actually duscussed this issue? I'll see what I can do). And I am sick and tired having to deal with MclLaen and McLAren fans thinking that you are above any rules whatsever. You guys have some nerve in having to justify murder if you have to as long as that "crime" is committed by McLaren. Are you seeing how ridiculous you are having to CONTINOUSLY defend McLaren every other day? And when you have nothing to support your arguments, rather than sticking to the subject you start going back to 1,000 years ago, mentioning who knows who thinking that actually your example is identical to what happened in Belgium. Are you kidding me? NO INCIDENT IS IDENTICAL!!! Give it up. Don't you find odd having to do that ALL THE TIME?. Would not be time for you to AT LEAST ONCE to accept what well qualified stewards decide to do? Do YOU know the rules? Do you? Even James Allen could find one thing to say against Ferrari. Imagine: JAMES ALLEN!!! I am ashamed for you.

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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

But he couldn'tve taken the chicane correctly - there was no room.

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He could've followed Kimi and taken it correctly.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

4. Still he got tow which he wouldn't have with how far he would have been behind had he taken his CRAP line through the corner.

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Out of interest, do you actually know what culminated in Hamilton being on this "crap" line through the corner?

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Originally Posted by cosmicpanda

He could've followed Kimi and taken it correctly.

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There was not enough room, it was a split second decision, and no racing driver making a split second decision will park the car simply so they can go through the corner without ploughing into the other cars sidepod, when they can cut across the chicane and then concede their position, to make it fair.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Had Lewis let Kimi by earlier on the straight , he might have had a chance to defend . As it was the move at the chicane had a direct effect on the pass at La Source .

He should , therefore , have waited to get him , which he would , on the hill after Eau Rouge .

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Perhaps that's what Kimi expected him to do, which might explain why he didn't really defend at La Source allowing Hamilton to make a great move on the brakes.

I do think that Kimi's poor defence at La Source, and Hamilton's ability on the brakes, contributed to there being a penalty awarded against Hamilton. Had the McLaren not got through at the hairpin then there may have been no penalty at all IMHO.

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Originally Posted by jens

It wasn't an overambitious overtaking move, because Räikkönen braked so early that Hamilton had not other option than to take alongside him. Secondly he stayed on the circuit, with overambitious move he should have flown off.

You mentioned Monza. Well, I'm not sure, but I think it has been done several times in the past that after cutting the first chicane rival driver will be passed in the next chicane? Or not? Chicane shortcuts are quite normal there especially on the opening laps. Don't remember anyone getting penalized though.

Talking about walls. Well, if they existed, then indeed we would see serious lack of overtaking, because drivers don't dare to risk, when they have so little room for mistakes. Valencia in theory should have enabled overtaking opportunities, but we didn't see many (actually we saw just one proper pass).

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Hamilton did not stay on the circuit, he took a shortcut through asphalt that was not included int the racetrack, so the move was overambitious. My point again, can you use parts not included in the racetrack to your advantage when trying to pass people? Obviously it was a split second call but still Hamilton should have slowed down a lot more when letting Kimi pass.

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Originally Posted by tinchote

In my view, the reason why MS was not punished is seen in the picture. De La Rosa is away of the racing line, leaving no room for MS. The question in yesterday's case is whether LH did not make the corner by lack of room or excess of speed.

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But Hamilton clearly conceded the position negating the advantage he made by cutting the corner, Schumacher did not.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

...Hamilton should have slowed down a lot more when letting Kimi pass.

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Why? AFAIK there is nothing in the regs to specify how much a driver has to slow down by, just as there is nothing to say when he is allowed to challenge for position again.

Hamilton cut the chicane, got ahead of Kimi as a result, and immediately allowed the Ferrari to regain the position as he was required to do. That's it.

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Originally Posted by mstillhere

I wonder why are you saying that what Massa just stated is a biased opinion? Did you read what he said? What he's saying is stating FACTS not opinion

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I did... he said this:

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That was my immediate opinion after seeing the replay.

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IMMA CHARGIN MAH LAZER!

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Why? AFAIK there is nothing in the regs to specify how much a driver has to slow down by, just as there is nothing to say when he is allowed to challenge for position again.

Hamilton cut the chicane, got ahead of Kimi as a result, and immediately allowed the Ferrari to regain the position as he was required to do. That's it.

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I'm sure there is a regulation about closed circuits and how in a race the winner is the one who completes the designated circuit fastest? Hamilton went off the designated circuit in a place where it's quicker to go straight through off the circuit than take the chicane and after that he didn't back off enough to negate the time-gain he got in relation to Räikkönen from short-cutting the chicane. Letting Kimi pass wasn't enough because had Hamilton made it through the chicane behind Kimi, he wouldn't have been so close behind at the start/finish line. The regulations are vague, that's probably one of the reasons that caused the incident, also circuit design should not allow people to take short cuts in high, or even moderate speeds.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

Hamilton did not stay on the circuit, he took a shortcut through asphalt that was not included int the racetrack, so the move was overambitious. My point again, can you use parts not included in the racetrack to your advantage when trying to pass people? Obviously it was a split second call but still Hamilton should have slowed down a lot more when letting Kimi pass.

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well yes..why no punishment for all the drivers goin of the track at the start - first corner?..gaining advantage by doin so..keeping up speed..instead of hitting the breaks and following the racetrack...Fe like Kimi..if he would have hit the breaks like Lewis should have donne according to some on here..he would never been so close behind Massa..Or if there would have been a concrete wall he would have been out of the race....that's what I learned here over the past couple of days right ?


For those who wanne see what I mean

http://media.vrtnieuws.net/2008/09/1...0154_wmvhi.wmv

http://images.theage.com.au/ftage/ff..._470x416,2.jpg
www.f1-live.com/f1/img/regulations/2008sport_en.pdf

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30.3 a) During practice and the race, drivers may use only the track and must at all times observe the
provisions of the Code relating to driving behaviour on circuits.
b) Other than by driving on the track, Competitors are not permitted to attempt to alter the grip of any
part of the track surface.

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Originally Posted by thunderbolt

http://images.theage.com.au/ftage/ff..._470x416,2.jpg
www.f1-live.com/f1/img/regulations/2008sport_en.pdf

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well ya..but what about my above post than ? and all them drivers not using the track either at the first corner..and also gaining advantage from it..like Kimi fe ? Can anyone tell me why none there got a penalty ?

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Originally Posted by Tonieke

well ya..but what about my above post than ? and all them drivers not using the track either at the first corner..and also gaining advantage from it..like Kimi fe ? Can anyone tell me why none there got a penalty ?

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30) GENERAL SAFETY

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30.1 Official instructions will be given to drivers by means of the signals laid out in the Code. Competitors must
not use flags similar to these.
30.2 Drivers are strictly forbidden to drive their car in the opposite direction to the race unless this is absolutely
necessary in order to move the car from a dangerous position.
30.3 a) During practice and the race, drivers may use only the track and must at all times observe the
provisions of the Code relating to driving behaviour on circuits.
b) Other than by driving on the track, Competitors are not permitted to attempt to alter the grip of any
part of the track surface.
30.4 If a car stops on the track it shall be the duty of the marshals to remove it as quickly as possible so that its
presence does not constitute a danger or hinder other competitors. If any mechanical assistance results in
the car rejoining the stewards may drop the driver such number of grid positions as they consider
appropriate if the incident occurs during a practice session or exclude him from the race (other than under
Article 30.9(d).
30.5 A driver who abandons a car must leave it in neutral or with the clutch disengaged and with the steering
wheel in place.
30.6 The organiser must make at least two fire extinguishers of 5kg capacity available to each competitor and
ensure that they work properly.
30.7 Save as specifically authorised by the Code or these Sporting Regulations, no one except the driver may
touch a stopped car unless it is in the paddock, the team’s designated garage area, the pit lane or on the
starting grid.
30.8 At no time may a car be reversed in the pit lane under its own power.
30.9 During the period commencing 15 minutes prior to and ending 5 minutes after every practice session and
the period between the commencement of the formation lap which immediately precedes the race and the
time when the last car enters the parc fermé, no one is allowed on the track, the pit entry or the pit exit with
the exception of :
a) marshals or other authorised personnel in the execution of their duty ;
b) drivers when driving or on foot, having first received permission to do so from a marshal ;
c) team personnel when either pushing a car or clearing equipment from the grid after all cars able to do
so have left the grid on the formation lap ;
d) team personnel when assisting marshals to remove a car from the grid after the start of the race.
30.10 During a race, the engine may only be started with the starter except in the pit lane or the team’s
designated garage area where the use of an external starting device is allowed.
30.11 Drivers taking part in practice and the race must always wear the clothes, helmets and head and neck
supports specified in the Code.
30.12 A speed limit of 60km/h will be imposed in the pit lane during all free practice sessions, this will be raised to
80km/h for the remainder of the Event. However, this limit may be amended by the Permanent Bureau of
the Formula One Commission following a recommendation from the FIA F1 safety delegate.

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Originally Posted by thunderbolt

30) GENERAL SAFETY

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where does that answer my question ? it just shows what they did was wrong...like showing in the video....and as the FIA likes to follow the rules by the letter these days..Them drivers should have gotten a drive true to !

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Perhaps that's what Kimi expected him to do, which might explain why he didn't really defend at La Source allowing Hamilton to make a great move on the brakes.

I do think that Kimi's poor defence at La Source, and Hamilton's ability on the brakes, contributed to there being a penalty awarded against Hamilton. Had the McLaren not got through at the hairpin then there may have been no penalty at all IMHO.

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I wouldn't really say that Kimi defended badly, just got outsmarted. He let Lewis take the inside line to get him back on the exit but Lewis saw this coming and acted accordingly.

But I must be honest, whereas I can see the Stewards reason behind their decision.

I've not once seen a penalty given for this kind of move. Alonso done exactly the same in Japan against (Klien or Heidfeld forgot not) and it was fine.

McLaren cannot be expected to know how far to drop back when in the past, what Hamilton did was fine, only now have they decided to say its not enough to simply let the car past, which was seen as fine before.

Once against, McLaren lose out to the inconsistancies of the Stewards and FIA and Ferrari benefit.

Tellingly for me, last 2 races, Massa and Hamilton have been found guilty of breaking the rules. Both were guilty (in the eyes of Stewards). Both did not gain a sporting advantage. One was let off and team given €10,000 fine, other a 25 second time penalty.

And the standard penalty from previous cases of unsafe release has been a 25s time penalty (Ralf Schumacher Imola 2005).

We can argue whether they deserved to be punished, but lets leave that out, and in the eyes of the Stewards both were guilty. And thats the defence in penalties.....

http://i38.tinypic.com/4zz22t.jpg

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Originally Posted by Tonieke

where does that answer my question ? it just shows what they did was wrong...like showing in the video....and as the FIA likes to follow the rules by the letter these days..Them drivers should have gotten a drive true to !

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you watch it again you will see thet it was to avide an accident
if he had stade on the track he would have hit the car in front.

lewis was not forced to take the short cut

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Other than by driving on the track, Competitors are not permitted to attempt to alter the grip of any part of the track surface.

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Originally Posted by tinchote

In my view, the reason why MS was not punished is seen in the picture. De La Rosa is away of the racing line, leaving no room for MS. The question in yesterday's case is whether LH did not make the corner by lack of room or excess of speed.

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How about when Heidfled got up the inside of Schumacher, Schumacher cut the chicane and saved a place by doing that.

The Stewards said no punishment because he didn't gain a position. But then in France this year, Hamilton arguably saved a position by cutting the chicane, and got penalised.

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

I've not once seen a penalty given for this kind of move. Alonso done exactly the same in Japan against (Klien or Heidfeld forgot not) and it was fine.

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It was Klien. It was 'fine' because Alonso had to lose another 5-10 seconds to let Klien re-pass him again, despite already conceding to Klien after cutting the chicane.

He was penalised for this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdy6qzI2-A4

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Originally Posted by thunderbolt

you watch it again you will see thet it was to avide an accident
if he had stade on the track he would have hit the car in front.

lewis was not forced to take the short cut

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lol ok...so if Lewis kept his line there would not have been a crash ? or like some say here..he should have hit the breakes to avoid a crash..Where is Kimi avoiding a crash at the first corner anyway ?

The question was:
Is it allowed to pas race leader like Hamilton did or is it not allowed?

And when we are looking on the pictures and the video we can clearly see that obviously it’s not allowed – that means: if Lewis had been on the track it had been impossible for him getting past Kimi as he did.. so what are stewards supposed to do? They must punish the driver who is breaking the rules – that easy it is. If they don’t do it – were we are going then??

My opinion is that they made right decision – and I’m sure they did know what the media should say about it afterwards. Especially the English … a Courageous decision in my mind.. :)

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Originally Posted by Tonieke

lol ok...so if Lewis kept his line there would not have been a crash ? or like some say here..he should have hit the breakes to avoid a crash..Where is Kimi avoiding a crash at the first corner anyway ?

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Ok, tell me how it is possible that a car that goes off the circuit is only 6km slower on the next straight (and right behind) a car that goes around the circuit correctly? Fair? No advantage? How can going off the circuit result in an overtaking manouvre in the next corner? That shouldn't be possible. Anyway it's up to the stewards to tell the drivers what they can do before these things happen, but they just aren't very good, are they?