Israel refuses peace negotiations

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Eki posts like this indicate how much you fail to grasp the complexity of the issue.

The place of Israel in the Jewish identity is largely a secular one despite Judaism mainly being identified as a religion rather than a race. Many of the people who fought to see Israel established weren't particularly religious at all.

Palestinians view themselves as Palestinian first, Muslim and Christian second. Entities like Hamas that are overtly religious in nature are only a recent development.

Religion is only a veneer. The conflict is about two different people squabbling over the same piece of land.

Unfortunately people like you can only see this thing in terms of a religious clash, I guess the reality is too hard to understand.

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You used the words "an ideal worth living and fighting". An ideal or a religion, similar things. Even if they are not very religious, they believe they have a right to move and live in Israel/Palestine. I'm a Lutheran, not a very religious one. If I believed I have an inherited right to live Wurtemberg, Germany, where Martin Luther nailed his thesis to the church door, emigrated there with few million Northern European Lutherans and expelled the locals, I'm quite sure the locals would resist.

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Originally Posted by Magnus

But IMHO religion is the problem, nothing else.

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Why?

How can you portray this as simple Muslim vs Jew when there are Muslim Arab Israeli citizens who vote, pay tax and serve (voluntarily) in the Israeli army? Many have been killed in the Occupied Territories serving Israel.

What is the role of Christian Arabs on both sides of the conflict in your view then?

Its easy to classify it as a religious war and certainly religion is used by both sides to stir up emotions and support and make the conflict worse, I'm not denying that, but at its core its a squabble over land between two differing people. The majority of the conflict has had a secular flavour to it, its only in the past decade when religious extremists have become louder.

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Originally Posted by Eki

You used the words "an ideal worth living and fighting". An ideal or a religion, similar things. Even if they are not very religious, they believe they have a right to move and live in Israel/Palestine. I'm a Lutheran, not a very religious one. If I believed I have an inherited right to live Wurtemberg, Germany, where Martin Luther nailed his thesis to the church door, emigrated there with few million Northern European Lutherans and expelled the locals, I'm quite sure the locals would resist.

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Don't try and suggest Wurtemburg is as important to Lutherans as Israel/Palestine is to Jews and Muslims (and Christians too).

Judaism isn't a missionary religion. Christianity is. Lutherans can be Lutherans without tracing a family history back to Germany. Jews feel an ancestral link to Israel because the assumption is that since Jews originate from Israel and there is hardly any religious conversion into the religion all Jews theoretically can trace a family history to Israel.

I agree with you that people can't just turn up in any land and demand its theirs because in the depths of time their ancestors used to live there. There would be chaos if this was allowed everywhere. However the reality is that Israel exists and is not going to disappear and they have to find a way of coexisting with their neighbours and vice-versa. None of the things you are posting helps at all in finding a way out of this mess.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Don't try and suggest Wurtemburg is as important to Lutherans as Israel/Palestine is to Jews and Muslims (and Christians too).

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I'm not. I'm suggesting that Jews and Muslims should relax, wake up, smell the coffee and realize it's AD 2007 and not BC 2007.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

I agree with you that people can't just turn up in any land and demand its theirs because in the depths of time their ancestors used to live there. There would be chaos if this was allowed everywhere.

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Exactly. Just yesterday I learned there aren't even enough drinking water for everybody in Israel, but they have to specifically make drinking water out of sea water! The place is obviously overpopulated.

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Originally Posted by Eki

Exactly. Just yesterday I learned there aren't even enough drinking water for everybody in Israel, but they have to specifically make drinking water out of sea water! The place is obviously overpopulated.

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Neither can Saudi Arabia which has one of the lowest populations per square kilometer of any decent sized country in the world. Your point is?

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Neither can Saudi Arabia which has one of the lowest populations per square kilometer of any decent sized country in the world. Your point is?

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My point is, it's stupid to move to areas that can't naturally support human populations.

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Originally Posted by Eki

Exactly. Just yesterday I learned there aren't even enough drinking water for everybody in Israel, but they have to specifically make drinking water out of sea water! The place is obviously overpopulated.

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Israel (without the territories): 338 people/Km^2
Holland: 399 people/Km^2
How can those poor dutch get around they must bump shoulders all the time. :rolleyes:
Eki, your grasp of religion and idealology is way off.
I guess your reality is that you've never felt the will to fight for anything other than materialistic things. I guess you've never felt injustice in your life. That's good, but it also makes your outlook detached from reality.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Then what are your views regarding the religious right, many of whom are subsidised to the eyeballs by government social benefits and who often use religious studies to avoid the draft? Given that the same social group is often the one that is most committed politically to aggressive strategies against both the Palestinians and Israel's Arab neighbours, they are effectively pushing Israel to pay a heavy price yet ensuring that its always someone else's son or daughter in the firing line.

I know that Shinui specifically campaigned about this particular issue but I haven't heard anything about them for quite some time. Where is Israel going on this one?

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Israel seems to change its mind about this in every election. You have to also differentiate between two kinds of very religious jews. Hared Jews (those are the stereotypical jews with black clothing and hats) and religious national jews who are just as religious but also believe in many "universal" values like the fact that they should be in the army. A lot of the latter are the ones that live in the territories as they belive Israel should be from the sea to the Jordan river as said in the bible. These guys go to the army and are usually very motivated to go to the most elite units. Shinui was actually dismantled but this tear in our society still exists. If you ask for my opinion I don't like the fact they "are effectively pushing Israel to pay a heavy price yet ensuring that its always someone else's son or daughter in the firing line."
In their view, the fact they are practicing their religion is also helping Israel defend itself by means of summoning devine intervention.

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Originally Posted by Rani

Israel (without the territories): 338 people/Km^2
Holland: 399 people/Km^2
How can those poor dutch get around they must bump shoulders all the time. :rolleyes:
Eki, your grasp of religion and idealology is way off.
I guess your reality is that you've never felt the will to fight for anything other than materialistic things. I guess you've never felt injustice in your life. That's good, but it also makes your outlook detached from reality.

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It's all about adaptation to your surroundings. Non-materialistic things should be the easiest to overcome since they are just states of mind and not concrete.

About the Dutch, I'd guess they have very little dry and infertile deserts unlike much of the Middle East.

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Originally Posted by Eki

About the Dutch, I'd guess they have very little dry and infertile deserts unlike much of the Middle East.

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Yes, its all infertile desert over there which is why Israel and the Occupied Territories' main exports are still agricultural products. Ever heard of Jaffa oranges?

Not really been to the Middle East to see what its really like have you....

Rani thanks for that assessment, did Shinui disappear because 'demand' for its line on that issue disappeared or as the result of politicking/backstabbing?