Who do you currently regard as the 3 greatest Formula 1 drivers and why?

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Originally Posted by D-Type

FACTS

I've finally checked the record of GV and his team mates at This site
As Garry Walker has said, this shows that in 1978, his first full season, his record was not as good as Reutemann but remember it was his first season. Then in 1979 there is barely a whisker between him and his team leader, Jody Scheckter, with only seven points separating them at season's end and GV ahead or equal on all indicators. In 1980 he eclipsed Scheckter and in 1981 Pironi.

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So going by the full years he had, 2:2 versus his teammates. That is a record not very special

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Another fact - he won a GP in his first full season. Who else has done that?Hamilton, Schumacher, Stewart, Fittipaldi and Baghetti. Any more?

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His teammate won 4 races that year, so now apply that to your comparison and then we are talking. Most other drivers never had a car anywhere good enough to challenge for wins in their first seasons, GV did.

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I accept that his early death leads to a certain amount of rose-tinted viewing, as it does in the case of Senna, Peter Collins, Jean Behra and, to an extent, Jim Clark but nevertheless he deserves to be ranked among the greats near the top of the pyramid. Maybe not in the top three but certainly in the next five or ten.

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Senna, Schumacher, Prost, Piquet, Lauda, Stewart, Fangio, Moss, Clark, Fittipaldi, Brabham, Ascari are drivers who I would rate far above Gilles at any time of the day.
Added to that, there are many more drivers, like Farina, Mansell, Rosberg, Alonso, Räikkönen, Häkkinen who I personally would take above GV as well.
So we are likely talking a place between top 15-20 for GV in all time, no where near top 8.

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I think that some here are under-rating him.

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No. There is no underrating him, only crazy overrating.

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I'll finish with a quote from Steve Small's book:

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Thanks for helping my case.
Your posted quote only showed how GV got people emotional due to his style. The same can be said about Colin Mcrae for example, but Sebastien Loeb is many times the better driver, just without as much flare as CM. The same comparison applies to F1.

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Originally Posted by D28

Motorsport magazine rated GV second greatest driver all time (to Nuvolari) in Nov. 1999.

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Then they are full-blown idiots.

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Consider The US Grand Prix, Watkins Glen 1979. In practice on a wet, treacherous track GV set the fastest time by 11 seconds over the next man, teammate Jody Scheckter.

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Actually, it was much less than 11 seconds and it was PRACTISE, where only 6 recorded a time. Out of those 6, most were no where near the quality of the Ferrari.

And as a point of reference, 1999 CART wet qualifying (so people were actually trying) at Mid-Ohio

1 Juan Montoya Reynard-Honda 1:28.135
2 Memo Gidley Lola-Ford 1:35.105
3 Luiz Garcia Jr. Reynard-Mercedes 1:38.629

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Next day GV qualified 3rd on the grid, 13 places ahead of Scheckter. He also won the race over Jones and Arnoux.
In 1981 at Monaco he qualified 2nd on the grid 15 spots ahead of Pironi and also took the victory.

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Why are you posting the results of 2 races? I can show you many races where he was nowhere compared to his teammates.

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I do not believe that GV was ever consistently outpaced by a teammate.

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Take a look at 1978 for example.
http://f1-facts.com/statistics/team-mates/GVilleneuve

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

Actually, it was much less than 11 seconds...

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Much less? Reports vary between 9 and 11 seconds, but whatever it was those who were there knew what they had seen. According to Jody Scheckter:

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"I scared myself rigid that day. I thought I had to be quickest. Then I saw Gilles's time and — I still don't really understand how it was possible. Eleven seconds!"

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Jacques Laffite had this to say about the time:

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"Why do we bother? Gilles is different from the rest of us. He is on a separate level."

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Both drove in those conditions at the same time so, sorry Garry, but their opinion carries more weight than yours.

However, as Nigel Roebuck has said:

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"No one would ever suggest that Gilles was a complete racing driver, in the Stewart or Prost sense of the word: he was too impetuous for that. Races were always more important than championships, and that made him a man apart."

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He also said:

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"Opinions are sharply divided about Gilles Villeneuve. To many he was simply what motor racing was all about. To the more dispassionate he was an accident waiting to happen, and when the end came, well, they were proved right, weren’t they?"

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Much less? Reports vary between 9 and 11 seconds, but whatever it was those who were there knew what they had seen. According to Jody Scheckter:
Jacques Laffite had this to say about the time:
Both drove in those conditions at the same time so, sorry Garry, but their opinion carries more weight than yours.

However, as Nigel Roebuck has said:

He also said:

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It was 9,2 seconds if I remember correctly. The only sources that vary about that time is the ones going by what Jody said and Nigel Roebuck has been reporting for decades, like the fool he is.
I posted times from a qualifying by montoya where he destroyed everyone. Qualifying, where more than 6 drivers took part. Surley qualifying is more important than an irrelevant practise session, where only a few drivers scored times.
If Gilles was on a level different compared to everyone else, why was he beaten by 2 teammates in row?


You have again chosen to ignore parts of my post.

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In any case, if you take opinions and stats together (where stats are far more important, because they are more unbiased), they fully support my view that rating Gilles amongst top 3 of all drivers is bordering on the line between lunacy and idiocy.

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

You have again chosen to ignore parts of my post.

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No, I read it. You say that opinions and stats together support your view of GV and I happen to agree that he does not rank among the top 3 all-time F1 drivers, but I do not agree with your view of GV's ability as a racing driver.

You chose to discount the experiences and opinions of Reutemann, Lauda, Scheckter and Lafitte among others, and use phrases such as "like the fool he is", "full-blown idiots" or "lunacy and idiocy" to discount others who disagree with you. In doing so you merely undermine your own argument.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

No, I read it. You say that opinions and stats together support your view of GV

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No, I dont let opinions of biased people cloud my judgement. I quoted you where you said opinions and facts should be taken together.

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and I happen to agree that he does not rank among the top 3 all-time F1 drivers,

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Which has been my problem in this thread, glad you agree.

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but I do not agree with your view of GV's ability as a racing driver.

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So where do you rank him? I dont see a place for him in top 15 of all time f1 drivers.
Incidentally, what do you see as my views on his abilities as a racing driver?

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You chose to discount the experiences and opinions of Reutemann, Lauda, Scheckter and Lafitte among others, and use phrases such as "like the fool he is", "full-blown idiots" or "lunacy and idiocy" to discount others who disagree with you. In doing so you merely undermine your own argument.

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I used the phrases full-blown idiots and like the fool he is regarding journalists, drivers i just called biased.
Gilles easily had an ability to get people to support him, like very few other athletes have. But that doesnt make his driving abilities better or worse.
FACTS remain. The so-called super Gilles never was so convincing against his teammates to make a case for him being an all-time great.

Garry,

I think you are confusing a driver's statistical record with his ability. Villeneuve had the ability, unfortunately he rarely had the car to demonstrate it and his untimely death precluded his etablishing a significant set of statistics.

Greatness is more than mere statistics. It is the ability to extract more performance from a car that those who understand believe is possible. It is having a 'racer's' attitude and commitment whether contesting 1st or 10th place. It is having the integrity to stand by an agreement. It is making me want to watch him race and arrange my weekend around it rather than merely watch the GP if I'm at home.

Had Villeneuve not been killed, one of two things might have happened: he might have scored no more wins and become a mere footnote in history, as you obviously consider him, or he might have gone on to score many wins and poles and figure higher in a table of statistics. But he gave his life for our sport so we will never know and must simply form opinions on what our hearts say might have been.

Like Berndt Rosemeyer, Guy Moll and others, he has earned his place in the pantheon of top drivers on the basis of 'what might have been'. Personally I don't think there is sufficient evidence to justify a top three ranking, but some people's hearts say otherwise. But his ability cannot be dismissed or ignored.

Now, a couple of points of fact:

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

It was 9,2 seconds if I remember correctly. The only sources that vary about that time is the ones going by what Jody said and Nigel Roebuck has been reporting for decades, like the fool he is.
I posted times from a qualifying by montoya where he destroyed everyone. Qualifying, where more than 6 drivers took part. Surley qualifying is more important than an irrelevant practise session, where only a few drivers scored times.

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It was not 'an irrelevant practise session' it was the first qualifying session. In those days the qualifying rules were completely different from today. There were two timed sessions where cars circulated freely and every lap was timed; the fastest from either session determined the grid. There were also two untimed sessions, usually one on the Thursday or Friday and another on race day morning.

On this occasion the first timed session was wet and Villeneuve was fastest. the second session was dry and everybody was faster. The times were definitely set during a timed qualifying session not an untimed purely practice session.

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If Gilles was on a level different compared to everyone else, why was he beaten by 2 teammates in row?

You have again chosen to ignore parts of my post.

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As I have already pointed out, the first was his rookie season and the second was because he recognised his status as number two driver, a concept that apears alien in today's world.

So, who is ignoring what is posted?


Edit: This was posted without seeing the latest exchange

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

No, I dont let opinions of biased people cloud my judgement.

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If by "biased people" you mean the likes of Scheckter, Lauda, Reutemann then they were there. They were team-mates and/or rivals of GV at the time and were in a far better position to judge than anyone how good a driver GV was. Scheckter's opinions of Watkins Glen, for example, are telling in my view because he was in the same car and the same conditions. He knew his capabilities, and those of the car, and he could not understand how GV did what he did.

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

So where do you rank him? I dont see a place for him in top 15 of all time f1 drivers.
Incidentally, what do you see as my views on his abilities as a racing driver?

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I'd certainly rank GV in my all-time top ten drivers because a top driver to me doesn't depend on the number of wins or championships. There's far more to being a great driver than that.

Just on the basis of Watkins Glen, where you've pointed out that "it was PRACTISE, where only 6 recorded a time" I'd say that your opinion of GV's abilities as a racing driver is that he is overrated ;)

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

The so-called super Gilles never was so convincing against his teammates to make a case for him being an all-time great.

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And you've certainly argued that case :cool: :s mokin:

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Originally Posted by D-Type

Greatness is more than mere statistics. It is the ability to extract more performance from a car that those who understand believe is possible. It is having a 'racer's' attitude and commitment whether contesting 1st or 10th place. It is having the integrity to stand by an agreement. It is making me want to watch him race and arrange my weekend around it rather than merely watch the GP if I'm at home.

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:up:

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Originally Posted by D-Type

Greatness is more than mere statistics. It is the ability to extract more performance from a car that those who understand believe is possible. It is having a 'racer's' attitude and commitment whether contesting 1st or 10th place. It is having the integrity to stand by an agreement. It is making me want to watch him race and arrange my weekend around it rather than merely watch the GP if I'm at home.

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I enjoy watching Sato race, but that don't neccesarily mean he's a 'great' driver!

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Originally Posted by wedge

I enjoy watching Sato race, but that don't neccesarily mean he's a 'great' driver!

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I agree. On it's own it doesn't. But in combination with other factors it might.