no its not. You seem to want to believe all the fantasies of the IRL's.Quote:
Originally Posted by pvtjoker
:rolleyes:
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no its not. You seem to want to believe all the fantasies of the IRL's.Quote:
Originally Posted by pvtjoker
:rolleyes:
Ummmm ... just DELETE the posts that get this chacha going. You have the power to stop it and don't. Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
It's clear the good doctor started the thread to pick a fight and you mods allow it. This is not a discussion, it's a pissing match.
Ban me if you like but this is whacked!
If the Moddy's shut down this thread, they are nuts. This is one of the best threads we have had on this topic in ages. I was away from the computer all Labor Day weekend, so I am not going to try to respond to everything that was said, but I do want to thank "Dr. Jack Miller" for digging up this can of worms and gently nudging the conversation in a direction I have advocated for years. He is asking for a Merger here...and I was beating that drum 3 or 4 years ago and THEN I was abused. I see now a few of you have come around and the hard cores are fading.
Listen, let me put my cred and cards on the table here. I am a volunteer timing and scoring guy, or at least was up til this year. I have worked with SCCA Pro, CART, IMSA, Champ Car, ASA, CASCAR/NASCAR Canada, and the CASC organization in Canada. I know people who work for most of these bodies, and I have been around race tracks all my adult life. I have no money invested, but I am a fan of all types of racing. ALL. I also dislike intensely what Tony George did to this sport in 1995. I was against it then, and I knew why I was against it. It forced me to take a side in a battle that shouldn't have been fought. I also love the Indy 500 and the lore and history that came with it.
So I have been straddling the divide on and off for a few years, for although I hated the IRL in its early years, I have noticed it has come around to being a reasonably well run business. I have watched CART take what was the moral high ground, all the top teams, engine manufacturers and a ton of money and pour into a toilet. I am now watching the CCWS take a lot of money, shore up some of the infrastructure, and then have no focus for marketing, no direction and no competant management. IT is to WEEP.
Some of you need to get a clue. Both of these series are limping along, but the huge difference between the two is the Amigo's are NOT putting their money in any meaningful way into marketing their series to North America. What is more, the Amigo's have quit on the US, and quit on what made their series unique. Now they want to go to Europe, go to markets where F1 has left or gave up, and then get those fans? I can say cash grab my friends, because they are not sharing with the likes of Dale Coyne are they?
No, here is the problems as I see them:
1) Champ Car really has changed direction and focus so many times, no one can believe their new found devotion to Europe now. What about the events that never happened? Is anyone to be fooled by the bad business practices that led to Phoenix failing? Denver? China? My god, the dead bodies are piling up...
2) The IRL, despite a few people's best fanstasies isn't going away. Tony Is spending his money and is willing to spend it if he has to make things happen. This fiction no one is watching the races is just that, fiction. When someone shows me how the crowd at Tremblant is a roaring success and more people show up to Detroit and that is a failure, then I guess I might change my mind, but lets face the reality. Both series get fans at some venues, and others don't draw as well. No one is accurate with their attendance figures, but I do know from watching IRL events and CCWS events on TV, I would hardly say the IRL is failing. I would also point out, yet again they are getting PAID for their TV product. CCWS is getting NOTHING for their TV, while TG pays to keep his series going if he has to, but he is getting money from TV and hasn't lost the confidence of the networks. The TV situation is the millstone around the Amigo's neck, and going to Europe isn't helping.
3) No one wants to deal with 2 leagues of racing. This was SO obvious in 1995, but is now part of the reality that people ignore. The casual fan doesn't care about the differences, and doesn't want to figure it out. He turns on NASCAR, and they promote their drivers and the magic of the sport. Here, we try to ignore the reality that the guys you are seeing, about half of them woudln't have rides in a strong unified OW series in North America. Strength of field, whether in names that people have heard of, or just plain depth is the problem that leads to marketability and selling the series. Every year CCWS has to explain to its fans who the hell half of their drivers are? People are saying "but I liked Andrew Ranger, why did he lose his ride" are never given answers that make sense, and they get ticked and they go watch a series that doesn't treat its talent like toilet paper. If any of you CCWS pom pom waving types care to explain to me why we take half our field and dump it for new names only on financial reasons can be seen as a good thing, have at it.
NO, Here we are having a frank discretion about what is wrong with CCWS, the IRL and OW in general. In short, this debate should be joined in an intelligent way and kept going, for as long as it takes. What many of you guys who refuse to see the folly in this are missing is NEITHER series is making money, but they keep up the fiction that they are just steps away from doing it. IRL purists claim the Amigo's are just steps away from bankruptcy here, CCWS guys say if Honda is gone, TG will fold. Well, people, this layman see's the former, but not the latter. Tony has spent what it takes for 12 years now, and he out lasted CART, so don't go smoking any more dope celebrating him giving up now.
I believe the Amigo's will sell to the IRL, and end it all. I don't like that scenario, but they have quit leading this series in a meaningful way, and I didn't know better, I would swear GF and KK have let Gentilozzi run this series this year. It has all the earmarks of a Gentilozzi operation.
WE need a merger of some sort, and the best thing us Champ Car fans can hope for is that some of the best parts of Champ Car management and events make it through the merger. I may not like George, but he has been proven right on this much, the people running CART didn't know what they were doing. It appears now the CCWS guys dont' seem to have much more of a clue. When you make Tony the smartest guy in the room, you are really done.....
Mark, Amen to what is posted above. I have loved the clairity and sincerity of all you have written over the years. What you write comes from that good place that is at the heart of what makes this sport so special. It is all about a passion for progress.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
I came to this board and started this thread because I feel the tipping point is finally before us and we all need to consider "what happens next?".
Personally, I just want the future back on track both in the litteral and the figuative sense.
I feel that everyone who loves our sport, (depspite all its current warts) needs to burry the hatchet and focus on what will make it great again and not spend another selfish moment trying to justify the failed visions (from both sides) that created this sorry mess.
There are good things and good people in each series and the time is now here for all of us to put our egos aside and pull in the same direction for betterment of the sport. That will take inspired leadership from someone... and that is the real problem in my mind. People inside and outide the sport need something and someone to believe in and more simply put, believe.
The right person with the right attitude, credability and vision will make all the difference in this battered and brusied world we all care so much about.
But who fills those shoes?
It isn't Chris Pook, BTW! (and no, I am not the Pookster!)
How can all this play out in a good way?
What happens next?
I think that we need to look at modern motor sports in a different way here.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJackMiller
Auto racing is fueled by sponsor dollars, not methanol or ethanol or whatever. In a great world (in NASCAR land?) you've got sponsors that make your drivers into stars -- witness what Allstate has done to Kasey Kahne. Therefore, you have to make the series into a sponsor's dream.
NASCAR got the attention of sponsors 'cause you could sponsor a car with lots of surface panels that could be clearly read (due to size and speed of the vehicle) on any part of the track. ESPN wasn't real picky about showing sponsors logos on their broadcasts (unlike Fox today), and sponsors realized that (circa 1998) they could put $5 million into a top-running car and have tons of exposure on TV. Of course, now things are different, and quite frankly, you're starting to see some of the problems.
So, we need to build a series where the benefits of the exposure far outweigh the costs to participate. The DP01 was a step in the right direction, NOT because it was better looking than the IRL car, or faster, but rather because it contained costs and regulated competition. Ditto w/ the Cosworth effort - the show can be controlled by the sanctioning body, and everyones costs are contained. That part is in place.
Sponsors need to feel like having their driver on a TV commercial will sell more products. That means that the teams must make TV presence part of the selection process. Right now, the driver w/ the dollars is the driver that runs, and sometimes they aren't the most PR-friendly people.
I have been around this sport longer than most and have done just about all there is to do except own a major team. I have even worked alongside Ron Dennis! He was a F1 mechanic then and I was the Gopher.
IMO both series are in trouble and I do not have the answer. New cars are not. Who cares except for fanatics?
Locally a NAPCAR rain out gets more space in the papers than an IRL or CC race or even F1 results.
I think part of the problem is driver recognition or lack of. Joe Blow fan and even non fans know the names of several NAPCAR drivers. I see decals, caps, jackets and tee shirts for NAPCAR all the time. I have even seen WOO tee shirts. This is not at the track but in this area (Georgian Bay, Midland , Orillia). I have yet to see any CC or IRL anything.
That said, on driver recognition I see far more promotion and recognition of IRL drivers than CC. CC has PT and Seabass, who they are losing, and even they are not household names. With all the hype most people know who Danica is. Hornish, Kaanan and Marco Andretti are fairly well known as are Michael and Penske. Beyond that who knows the rest, even Franchitti or Dixon? OWR needs to make there drivers better known. IRL seems to do better aided of course by the 500.
At this late stage to rebuild OWR is going to take time and hard hard work with results, not hype. It is also going to require one series however that may occur. I know who I don't want to run it and that is TG and/or the Amigos or NAPCAR. However, I expect one will end up in charge and it may well be NAPCAR which will always relegate OWR to 3rd rate.
Not that the above has accomplished anything but to let me blow off steam but those are my thoughts.
By the way I lurked on this forum for some time before I joined and decided not to use my name as IMO there was too much nastiness toward posters. I do post on other forums under my name and I have told one regular poster here who I am. I am nobody important but now just a fan. My only claim to fame is I have been around this sport (business) for over 50 years and have become very cynical.
Jack, Drifter and a few others are saying what I have been saying for a while. The sport needs to heal, and it needs to get a lot further down the road in a hurry if it is to be relevent. We know what we don't want, but the reality we are getting is much closer to what we don't want than we would like.
Those of you who blindly believe in the "vision" of Champ Car and what is is doing should be chagrined that people involved in the sport such as Jack or Drifter are coming out of hiding to say what they are saying. I don't know either one personally, but I do know that I know many who think just like them who ARE involved in racing.
I am a fan, but I am a fan who has been around racing long enough from close enough to the inside to see what people are thinking, and no one really likes where Champ Car or the IRL are going.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
Yep. Maybe I'll start disbelieving when they start canceling races mid-season.
How can you HONESTLY say CC is maintaining a level headed business plan when the current CC regime routinely promotes and then cancel races and barely attract sponsors to the series? You can't. While I appreciate your bullish approach to CC you 'll never convince most that the series is as healthy or rosy as you paint it. The series isn't quite in the "crapper" (yet), but they are hardly on the road of prosparity. IMO, the series is mirroring the latter days of Trans-Am more and more each day.
I guess were in need of ANOTHER 5-year plan. Only this plan will bank on Europe being be its savior. We'll see how it pans out. I know one thing, if this is the case, NA won't be watching the series with quite the same vigor as it does now. Let the "F1-lite" comparisons begin...
Joker, rarely do I agree with you, although sometimes partially I agree with you....but this time...you hit it right on the head man....
Actually i can see at least one positive matter - dropping the rivalry between teams on a technical basis and as a consequence the very high and the pointless expenditure. So i think the specification chassis is good, very good, not only for price but also for every technical (and safety) regulations of interest. Of course this can be dangerous by eliminating the diversity of manufacturers. Nevertheless , the positive direction is easily seen - cut the cost of cars/racing to the (reasonable of course) limit.