How good is Sebastien Loeb?

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Originally Posted by focus206

You're entitled to your opinion. But obviously when you state the reasons behind your opinion, someone of a different opinion will tell you why they think you're wrong. For example, I counter your statement that Loeb had no competition in 2009-2012 by saying that you're completely ignoring and understimating Hirvonen and later Ogier. Nobody says "Loeb faced the fiercest of competitions ever seen in WRC between 2009 and 2012" but saying that he had no competition and that those were easy titles for him is wrong in my opinion.

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I respect your opinion, and respectfully disagree with you, which is fine, but it's hard to be reasonable with someone who appears unable to make the distinction between opinion and fact.

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Originally Posted by RAS007

I respect your opinion, and respectfully disagree with you, which is fine, but it's hard to be reasonable with someone who appears unable to make the distinction between opinion and fact.

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Okay, but what is that you disagree with? You don't think that Hirvonen was a driver capable of winning the championship and offering tough opposition?

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Originally Posted by focus206

Okay, but what is that you disagree with? You don't think that Hirvonen was a driver capable of winning the championship and offering tough opposition?

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To answer your question directly: I think Hirvonen was a very capable driver and may have won several championships in a different era; my point is that he was really the only competition Loeb had, after Gronholm retired. In previous years, there were many ex-champions fighting for victory, say in the 90s, where you had Biasion, Auriol, Kankkunen, Sainz, then McRae, Makinen, Burns, Gronholm, plus specialists like Panizzi, Liatti, etc. In those years, you were never really sure who was going to win any given rally. The second half of the Loeb era was a far cry from those days..I am well aware that Loeb beat all of them during the first half of his reign, but after Gronholm went, there wasn't very much......depth to the competition.

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Originally Posted by RAS007

I respect your opinion, and respectfully disagree with you, which is fine, but it's hard to be reasonable with someone who appears unable to make the distinction between opinion and fact.

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you respect opinion of focus206 ,but you ''rest your case'' with me.

relaity check focus206 and me saying the same.

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Originally Posted by dimviii

you respect opinion of focus206 ,but you ''rest your case'' with me.

relaity check focus206 and me saying the same.

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Perhaps that's because focus206 isn't using phrases like "reality check".

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Originally Posted by RAS007

To answer your question directly: I think Hirvonen was a very capable driver and may have won several championships in a different era; my point is that he was really the only competition Loeb had, after Gronholm retired. In previous years, there were many ex-champions fighting for victory, say in the 90s, where you had Biasion, Auriol, Kankkunen, Sainz, then McRae, Makinen, Burns, Gronholm, plus specialists like Panizzi, Liatti, etc. In those years, you were never really sure who was going to win any given rally. The second half of the Loeb era was a far cry from those days..I am well aware that Loeb beat all of them during the first half of his reign, but after Gronholm went, there wasn't very much......depth to the competition.

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Okay, at least we passed from "no competition" to "one driver". I agree that 2009 and 2010 were years of little competition, other than Hirvonen there were Solberg with private Citroen, Sordo and Latvala who weren't good enough and Ogier who was still a rookie, so that leaves only Hirvonen as a tough opponent (even if at least Sordo and Latvala can only blame themselves for not being fast enough, they had works cars as well).
But 2011 and 2012 I really cannot see why you say there was little competition. Especially 2011, it was a very competitive year! Every round (except the asphalt ones because the two Seb were too fast) we could have had 4 different winners: Loeb, Ogier, Hirvonen and Latvala. 4 isn't THAT much, but their times were always similar and some rallies were really tight, at the penultimate round we had 3 drivers fighting for the title, because Latvala made too many mistakes in the first rounds. So I really don't understand why 2011 would be a season with no competition, I'd say the opposite.
2012 not as much, but still Loeb had to face Hirvonen, Latvala and Solberg with works cars. Now to me, that is a particular season, because in almost every single round. the works Ford of Latvala and Solberg had problems (mostly because of their drivers' faults). But it feels a bit forced to me saying that in 2012 there was no competition when Loeb had those 3 drivers to face. One could also say Solberg's speed was fading and it's true, but both him and Loeb were born in 1974, so it's only Loeb's merit if he was still fast that year.
So what I would personally say is that Loeb had little competition in 2009 and 2010 (but by little I mean few drivers, because I rate Hirvonen as a driver who would have deserved to be world champion in his career, if he hadn't have to face Loeb and then Ogier)

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Originally Posted by Coach 2

Okay guys, one more time.
Loeb has won 78 WRC rally. But it is also something else he has most of, and it's really very illogical. Some other drivers should have the most of this.
Ogier showed the same property in the season 2017. Meek showed the total opposite.
What am I aiming for?
This is what makes him the best of all time. But it seems that Ogier has the same property.

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The best car.

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Originally Posted by Allez Andruet

Comparing numbers ain't discussing.

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You haven't backed your story by a single bit. I've presented hard cold facts. Only thing you have presented is blabbering with foul language and insults. Tells a lot about your personality.

I'm well aware of rallying history.

Guess the hurt and pain is very real and stronger than I anticipated. Nuff said, I won't be goin down on your road. Reported and added new member in ignore list.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

He was crap, especially that year he didn't compete in the last 4 or so events and still won the championship! :p

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Originally Posted by cali

You haven't backed your story by a single bit. I've presented hard cold facts. Only thing you have presented is blabbering with foul language and insults. Tells a lot about your personality.

I'm well aware of rallying history.

Guess the hurt and pain is very real and stronger than I anticipated. Nuff said, I won't be goin down on your road. Reported and added new member in ignore list.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

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Good riddance!