Pirelli defend tyres after Schumacher blast

Printable View

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

23rd May 2012, 00:43
wedge

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

If people are so stunned about the pace of Williams, why does no-one comment on Ferrari? Let's put it this way - "omg, Ferrari was so quick, this means F1 is a Pirelli lottery, because they are not supposed to be up there". Because based on 2012 performances so far there is little to choose between Ferrari and Williams in dry conditions - they were close in Australia, China (remember the relentless blocking by Maldonado against Alonso in the end - those two have been battling all the time this year!) and Bahrain. So if Williams is used as an example of "Pirelli lottery", then Ferrari is in the same boat. Why isn't Ferrari mentioned?

Alonso has admitted he the tyres have been a problem understanding the true performance of his Ferrari and rivals:

Quote:

"I don't know," said Fernando Alonso upon being asked if his strong second place indicated that the Ferrari's upgrades have now made it into a competitive car. "In the last race we finished P9, a minute behind the Red Bull. Here we finished one minute ahead of the Red Bull. I don't think our upgrades are worth two minutes over a race! They have worked a little better than expected but even so I don't really know where we are. I think some of the other teams have under-performed, or had problems getting their tyres working because some of the results here feel very strange."

Confusion reigns in Spain | Features & Experts | Sky Sports Formula 1

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

It looks like people are arguing for the need of having a couple of chosen top teams at the front, rather than trying to be impressed by the genuine progress of midfield teams. And yes, I mentioned genuine. Because if Ferrari in 2012 being at the front of the grid is OK for you and not the matter of luck, then so should be Williams, who has designed an almost equally good car, regardless of how you are trying to put it.

Who now says its OK for Ferrari to be at the front? Malaysia was the second race and was easy to jump to the conclusion that it was down to Alonso.

The same teams stay at the front for period of time is because they consistently do the better job.

Genuine progress of midfield teams came from developing their cars and drivers maximising their cars.

Suddenly picking up a second from one race to the next, especially at Barcelona - arguably the greatest test of a car's aerodynamics on the F1 circuit, sorry, but IMHO alarm bells should be ringing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

I remember in 2009 there were complaints as well. That the top teams (McLaren/Ferrari) were handicapped due to the fiasco of KERS and DDD saga and we had fake teams at the front.

The complaints was on the legality of DDD. It just so happened that some of the lesser teams had exploited the loophole.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

And so what? The point of F1 is entertainment and the moments should be enjoyed instead of being grumpy about many things.

Yes, but to an extent and not so that such intricacies become watered down as Mark Hughes fears:

Quote:

Within this ambiguity it becomes more difficult than ever to assess the performances of the drivers. Maldonado drove a perfectly controlled race, delicately balancing the requirements of looking after the Williams' rear tyres while sustaining big pressure from Alonso. It was a thinking drive which combined with his qualifying speed became the winning combination. But, like Nico Rosberg's China win, or Jenson Button's in Australia, it was a drive that was all about measuring out the energy of the tyres in the fastest, most efficient way. The sustained aggression and relentlessness, maintaining flat-out on-the-limit driving for lap after lap, a skill that so few can master, is currently an obsolete requirement.

Measured by the new, Pirelli-dominated, set of requirements Maldonado is a top driver. The worrying thing is that he may be equal first with the 23 others.

Confusion reigns in Spain | Features & Experts | Sky Sports Formula 1

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

One more thing. Remember 1997. One reason, why that season was so remarkable, were the tyres or more specifically the beginning of a tyre war after a break several years. This included some impressive performances of Panis and of course the Hungary drive of Damon Hill. Hill's achievement of almost winning a race in an Arrows is still part of F1's folklore. Yes, if you think about it, it was largely down to tyres as Bridgestone was much superior to GoodYears on that day, on which the top teams were running.

The tyres performed in a consistent manner.

When Pirelli were last in F1 they were grippy but over a short distance.

The tyre war in 1997, Bridgestone was arguably the better tyre as the Goodyears had a tendency to blister more easily.

When Michelin entered F1 this century they used to go into a horrible graining phase after the opening laps.

What can you say about this year's Pirellis? Very peaky. Temperature too low no grip, too high and suffer degradation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGWilko

So yep, they aint gotta clue Wedge my boy.......

As I originally questioned:

Remind me why Sam Michaels - who has done some winning in his time at Williams buggered off because its far too simple to blame engines.
23rd May 2012, 08:42
ArrowsFA1
Quote:

Originally Posted by wedge

Suddenly picking up a second from one race to the next, especially at Barcelona - arguably the greatest test of a car's aerodynamics on the F1 circuit, sorry, but IMHO alarm bells should be ringing.
1. I don't agree that Williams "suddenly" found a second. The car has been competitive since day one of the season and I think credit is due to the team for continually improving since then. In Spain all the factors that make up a win came together for Maldonado but to simply put that down to fluke or the tyres alone does the team and driver an injustice.[/*:m:z36yrg61]
2. In the light of the above I see no reason for alarm bells. The Williams performed on a circuit where aero is key so might that not suggest a damn fine car that performed better than the competition and appears to have a good chance of continuing to be competitive in the races to come? That's what they're all trying to do after all!![/*:m:z36yrg61]
23rd May 2012, 10:46
SGWilko

Quote:

Originally Posted by wedge

As I originally questioned:

Remind me why Sam Michaels - who has done some winning in his time at Williams buggered off because its far too simple to blame engines.

No idea - I reckon you'd best get the answer to that from t'orses mouth.

I was not referring to Sam anyway, merely setting you straight on your (apparent) lack of knowledge in respect of Williams history.
23rd May 2012, 11:09
airshifter
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

I don't agree that Williams "suddenly" found a second. The car has been competitive since day one of the season and I think credit is due to the team for continually improving since then. In Spain all the factors that make up a win came together for Maldonado but to simply put that down to fluke or the tyres alone does the team and driver an injustice.[/*:m:2x092p0z]
In the light of the above I see no reason for alarm bells. The Williams performed on a circuit where aero is key so might that not suggest a damn fine car that performed better than the competition and appears to have a good chance of continuing to be competitive in the races to come? That's what they're all trying to do after all!![/*:m:2x092p0z]
I think part of the picture with the cars being on a more level playing field is also the testing restrictions. The very front of the pack in past years has had the budgets to drop huge amounts of money on minor tweaks after test sessions or through the year. The limits on testing time took some of that advantage away.

I personally enjoy having a number of cars capable of winning. The years any car dominated got boring quick most of the time.
23rd May 2012, 13:06
F1boat

Quote:

Originally Posted by tfp

Cant understand the complaints, this year weve had 2 drivers taking their first race win, and genuinely I cannot guess who will win in Monaco. Compared to the rubbish (IMO) season last year where we knew who was going to win, this is like a breath of fresh air :)

+1 :)
23rd May 2012, 13:35
ArrowsFA1

Quote:

Originally Posted by tfp

...genuinely I cannot guess who will win in Monaco...

Indeed :up: I think it is probably safe to exclude Caterham, Marussia & HRT from the list of possible winners but other than that who knows :crazy:
23rd May 2012, 15:58
wedge
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

I don't agree that Williams "suddenly" found a second. The car has been competitive since day one of the season and I think credit is due to the team for continually improving since then. In Spain all the factors that make up a win came together for Maldonado but to simply put that down to fluke or the tyres alone does the team and driver an injustice.[/*:m:2h99ikuk]
In the light of the above I see no reason for alarm bells. The Williams performed on a circuit where aero is key so might that not suggest a damn fine car that performed better than the competition and appears to have a good chance of continuing to be competitive in the races to come? That's what they're all trying to do after all!![/*:m:2h99ikuk]
I agree Williams have a competitive car but facts are facts. Look up the times from previous GPs this year.

Ferrari have been up and down in midfield. Same for MGP, RBR, McLaren. Form suggests the same with Williams. If Williams can't consistently sustain a high level - for sake of argument let's say podiums then arguably its a fluke win from the tyres.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGWilko

No idea - I reckon you'd best get the answer to that from t'orses mouth.

I was not referring to Sam anyway, merely setting you straight on your (apparent) lack of knowledge in respect of Williams history.

I very much respect Williams.

If Williams know winning then surely that implies winning on a consistent basis including recent history? A winless streak for nearly a decade does it suggest Williams know winning? I would have thought 'Williams back to winning ways' would have been more apt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by airshifter

I think part of the picture with the cars being on a more level playing field is also the testing restrictions. The very front of the pack in past years has had the budgets to drop huge amounts of money on minor tweaks after test sessions or through the year. The limits on testing time took some of that advantage away.

I personally enjoy having a number of cars capable of winning. The years any car dominated got boring quick most of the time.

I don't think it you can put it down to testing. Look at 2009 when FI had a stunning low downforce package.

The ban on EBDs has levelled the playing field and I think the tyres have grossly exaggerated the differences in the cars.

Sport is boring. It's generally the same teams/individuals dominate over a period of time because of consistency of sustaining a high level.
23rd May 2012, 16:08
wedge

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

The point of F1 is entertainment and the moments should be enjoyed instead of being grumpy about many things.

I enjoyed the races this year at an individual level. Each have been entertaining, intriguing and fascinating to watch.

Yes, Maldonado's win was a fine win, on merit but a certain kind of merit when you taken into context and the season as a whole its feels too good to be true and a nagging suspicion that something isn't quite right namely unpredictable tyres.

And what is life when one isn't grumpy? Many of us are privileged to live in a liberal democracy and even when we prospered in the boom years did it stop any of us being grumpy at those who govern our countries?
23rd May 2012, 19:13
Garry Walker

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

You know what's worse? Garry's fully right.

I tend to be right most of the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDunnell

In no sense did Maldonado not deserve that race win. And there is a way in which it was business like usual — there have occasionally been races in which there have been unexpected, yet still genuine, winners. It is precisely because it was unexpected that Maldonado's victory came as such a wonderful surprise. I fail to understand why this is a troublesome concept.

He deserved it fully. It is just that in two races, due to the tyres being idiotic, he might be fighting for 13th position on pace.

Quote:

Originally Posted by F1boat

In the end every fan has to ask and answer for himself - do you prefer the races we have now or do you like the races we had in 2004, 2002, 2010 more? Do you want to have more overtaking or you prefer the "follow the leader" style of racing which we had until last year?

I prefer no overtaking to overtaking with the help of DRS. DRS gives you overtaking, but it is largely meaningless.
Why mention 2004? Why not mention 2003 or 2006, where we had great races without tyres being stupid or without DRS making overtaking as difficult as lighting a match?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

I remember in 2009 there were complaints as well. That the top teams (McLaren/Ferrari) were handicapped due to the fiasco of KERS and DDD saga and we had fake teams at the front.

DDD was perfectly legal and it was up to other teams to come up with. What KERS fiasco?
23rd May 2012, 19:39
pino

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garry Walker

I tend to be right most of the time.

That's because your wife loves you :p :

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page