The 2009 IndyCar Series schedule:

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Originally Posted by indycool

Well, if you read all that into TG's statement with your "code," are any aliens coming in from Pluto in the next few days?

I didn't see any "line in the sand" drawn from that. In fact, Craig's statements were to have discussions with TG. Sure, a lot of things happened later, but not with THAT video clip.

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I haven't heard any aliens giving interviews that they are coming from Pluto. I did hear Tony George talking there that if he didn't get things his way, he was going to start his own oval racing series "with more of an American flavor". In other words, "My way or the highway." It was meant to be very clear at the time, it was very clear, and exactly what he described happened.

I also heard Andrew Craig trying to be diplomatic. Probably Las Vegas speedway and Surfer's Paradise were being diplomatic with Tony, and in response they got "My way or the highway". I expect it will happen to the LBGP too. It's just a matter of how long it will take for that to happen.

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Originally Posted by Miatanut

I didn't claim anything. I let Tony explain it in his own words. Somebody made a comment that Tony wasn't talking about an oval-based league populated with American drivers.

Did you watch it?

That WAS the announcement of the league. Between all the 'uh's" and "um's" (some things don't change), he said he wanted his league to have "more of an American flavor (code for stopping the American series from being over-run with F1 retirees and rejects)" and be oval-based. From that point forward, CART was expected to do as Tony told them, or he would take his ball and go home. They didn't, then he did. Just as recently with Las Vegas speedway (again, some things don't change).

If the real intent in forming the league was to just create the current, but weaker, imitation of CART, what was the point of these last few years?

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You have got to be kidding me!!!! Are you for real??!!!

This is your problem and for those fanatics out there:

1) You base you narrow mind and argument against IRL for what was said and done 12 years ago.
2) You believed that CC and CART existed because of you, the fanatics.
3) You typically ignore the reality that even Paul Newman, Paul Tracy, Jimmy Vasser who's been very vocal against IRL in the past are now in IRL. Even the freaking owner of the series, KK, is now in IRL!!! Next year, Forsythe most likely join IRL too.
4) Champ Car has been officially dead since February. It's gone! You cannot stand how TG work his own, then you know what to do. How in the h3ll have you became an IRL fan in the first place? When CC was still ran by the amigos, you guys already hated IRL!! Oh no, please don't tell me that you are hoping that the CC guys are gonna come back or take over the IRL. Please no. Or start a thread how the CC guys are kicking the IRL guys.....how's that gonna happen? IRL and CC racing? Where's CC now, anyways?

Grow up.

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Originally Posted by Cart750hp

You have got to be kidding me!!!! Are you for real??!!!

This is your problem and for those fanatics out there:

1) You base you narrow mind and argument against IRL for what was said and done 12 years ago.
2) You believed that CC and CART existed because of you, the fanatics.
3) You typically ignore the reality that even Paul Newman, Paul Tracy, Jimmy Vasser who's been very vocal against IRL in the past are now in IRL. Even the freaking owner of the series, KK, is now in IRL!!! Next year, Forsythe most likely join IRL too.
4) Champ Car has been officially dead since February. It's gone! You cannot stand how TG work his own, then you know what to do. How in the h3ll have you became an IRL fan in the first place? When CC was still ran by the amigos, you guys already hated IRL!! Oh no, please don't tell me that you are hoping that the CC guys are gonna come back or take over the IRL. Please no. Or start a thread how the CC guys are kicking the IRL guys.....how's that gonna happen? IRL and CC racing? Where's CC now, anyways?

Grow up.

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Odd post from somebody using the handle "CART750HP"!

For the record, for the last few years I felt quite strongly that there needed to be a single series, and I felt the last year of Champ Car represented desecrating the rotting corpse of CART.

Also for the record, I read the White Paper with glee when it first became public, because I knew Gurney was proposing exactly what the sport needed. The subsequent years of growth proved that.

Currently we have the bad things about the USAC days without the good things.

Hard to find any joy in that.

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Originally Posted by MDS

I'm sure Iowa is a nice place to live, for some people who like a certain lifestyle. My problem with Iowa is, its a tiny media market with a small population, and little local media or corporations to drawn from.

A lot of IRL races are in the middle of nowhere.

Out of the top 10 markets the IRL has has four races: Los Angeles, Chicago, the Bay area, and Dallas. The could have picked up an established race Houston, and an oval near Boston but chose to let that market go.

Only seven IRL races are in the top 20 U.S. Media markets: St Pete, Detriot, and Miami. They could have picked up Cleveland, but chose not to.

Only eight IRL races are in the top 30 market: Indianapolis. They dropped Nashville and could have picked up Portland.

Four races are in the 30 to 40 market range: Kansas City, Columbus, Milwaukee, Cincinnatti

There are no races in the 40 to 50 market range. That means out of 19 races only 12 are in major top U.S. 50 media markets. Racing in front of small crowds in the middle of no where, like Iowa and Richmond do the sport little good.

This schedule was one big chance for the IRL to make waves, bring positive attention to itself with a series of marquee events, instead they throw out dull, almost the same as the year before crap, and people wonder why the Indy 500 ratings are below the NASCAR average and far below the NASCAR broadcast channel average.

Sure ISC events might be off the table, but take Eddie Gossage up on his five track deal to get New Hampshire and Las Vegas on the schedule. I'd much rather see the season end with a 400 mile event at LVMS than a 300 miler at Homestead.

This was the year to back Paul Newman's effort to get a race at Floyd Bennett Feild. It would be a big market marquee event in Brooklyn in April to lend exposure to the Indy 500.

Pikes Peak has been sold, if NASCAR didn't put anything in the lease prohibit it, look at staging a race there.

Look at having an early season race in Brazil. The league has a number of Brazillian drivers and sponsors, so it would more than likely be successful. It's in the same time zone as the US and because of the climate you could stage a race at the PK circuit in March.

Mexico City could be another March race date on a big stage.

There were bigger better options out there, and none of them made it on the schedule. I don't know if that's the tracks' or promotors' fault, but I bet a fair bit of the blame can find a home in Indianapolis.

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This post of yours is nothing but wishing IRL's schedule to be similar to CC. Let me ask you this: those venues you wished were added on the schedule, did they help CC financially and became successful? Where's CC now?

I don't see any point of yours other than hoping CC is still around.

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Originally Posted by Miatanut

Odd post from somebody using the handle "CART750HP"!

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I agree. At least you start to wonder the difference of what was and what is.

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Originally Posted by Miatanut

For the record, for the last few years I felt quite strongly that there needed to be a single series, and I felt the last year of Champ Car represented desecrating the rotting corpse of CART.

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....well, I know how you feel. You just wished it was the IRL who's gonna join CC.

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Originally Posted by Miatanut

Also for the record, I read the White Paper with glee when it first became public, because I knew Gurney was proposing exactly what the sport needed. The subsequent years of growth proved that.

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I don't know what you're talking about and I bet no matter what Gurney or Miatanut says, TG will eventually look out for his own interests.

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Originally Posted by Miatanut

Currently we have the bad things about the USAC days without the good things.

Hard to find any joy in that.

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First, I was too young during the "you suck" days. I agree, hard to find any joy in that. The name USAC alone doesn't sound right.

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Originally Posted by Cart750hp

This post of yours is nothing but wishing IRL's schedule to be similar to CC. Let me ask you this: those venues you wished were added on the schedule, did they help CC financially and became successful? Where's CC now?

I don't see any point of yours other than hoping CC is still around.

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Actually I'm wishing it could be more like NASCAR, which has a presence in 11 of the top 20 markets, including six of the top seven. Adverstisers really like factoids like that when it comes to spending $7 to $14 million

MDS, yes, I CAN deny they "whiffed" on the schedule release. Of the events on the schedule, the weakest is Homestead and it's going to the end to try to spice it up. All are independently promoted -- no self-promotes, track rentals or co-promotes. It was announced in July, giving teams plenty of time to put programs together with potential sponsors if they can. None of the races appear to be "fluff," like an Ansan or a Zhuhai.

If they didn't grant you, in your wisdom, the bankrupt CC venues you desired, we're going to hafta agree to disagree and you're going to hafta just deal with it in your own way.

The Meadowlands course was miserable, so bad that in the first race there, Luyendyk went on a runoff, wound up in a parking lot and had to ask directions to get back on course DURING THE RACE. It lasted a couple years, then course and promoter changed to no avail. Whatever attendance and sponsorship it had for the first year or two didn't hold up and didn't hold up to raised sanction fees. CART bragged about being in NYC. Attendance, who knows? There weren't a great number of seats.

Cleveland was a novelty, the first for CART on an airport course and was a leader in its own right. If, for no other reason, the track doctor, Dr. Virginia Ellis, developed what came to be known as the "MR-10," a golf cart built with room for a gurney and life-saving gear to use on pit road, something quite common now. However, attendance was ALWAYS overplayed and that caught up quite quickly with the sanction-fee demands of CART Chairman John Frasco. After IMG, which has its HQ in Cleveland, tried it for a few years, it just gave promoter rights back to CART because it wasn't worth the trouble, same as it did with Detroit. Although it may be the only road course in the world (outside of perhaps Edmonton) where a fan could see the whole track, and the FASTEST road course on the CART/CC schedule, it hit the financial ceiling rather quickly and went downhill in the pocketbook for a long, long time.

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Originally Posted by indycool

MDS, yes, I CAN deny they "whiffed" on the schedule release. Of the events on the schedule, the weakest is Homestead and it's going to the end to try to spice it up. All are independently promoted -- no self-promotes, track rentals or co-promotes. It was announced in July, giving teams plenty of time to put programs together with potential sponsors if they can. None of the races appear to be "fluff," like an Ansan or a Zhuhai.

If they didn't grant you, in your wisdom, the bankrupt CC venues you desired, we're going to hafta agree to disagree and you're going to hafta just deal with it in your own way.

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Have you looked at the schedule? Watkins Glen, Infineon, Homestead, St. Pete, Infineon, Edmonton and likely Tornoto are all money losers. Chicago and Kansas aren't promoted because there's no need since the hold NASCAR fans hostage to get them to buy tickets. Mid-Ohio and Motegi are Honda Company picnics. Milwaukee and Richmond are at best a marginally profitable. So that leaves what, Indy, Surfers and Iowa as profitable, healthy events?

Moving Homestead to the fall a few weeks before the NASCAR finale is just moronic. The race was a boring affair in front of a bunch of Malboro smokers who got free tickets. How is making it the last race of the season any better?

I don't want the schedule to look more like Champ Car, I just want to be better and more exciting. Most ovals offer parade-style racing and courses like Watkins Glen and Mid-Ohio just don't create good racing with these cars, but I suppose as long mega-rich companies are willing to bleed cash to put them on you'll support it.

Yes, I've looked at the schedule, and we should just agree to disagree.

I don't believe you understand the profit picture at many of these venues. St. Petersburg, for example, didn't happen until EVERYTHING was in place, a deal with the city, enough sponsorship to carry the load, etc. Mid-Ohio wasn't added until sponsorship was put together with Honda so that the whole deal made financial sense. This event WASN'T a "Hey, we're going to Zhuhai and 500 million Chinese are gonna care."

Whether NASCAR fans are "held hostage" or most of them go to enjoy the IRL race is a matter of opinion at Kansas and Chicago. You don't see the crowds going down at either place.

I'll give you that Homestead doesn't draw well for much of anything. BUT those "free" tickets for Marlboro are PAID FOR by Marlboro and sponsorships are in place for the race.

Richmond attendance continues to grow and the bank down there has stuck with its sponsorship. Milwaukee is different in that it's traditional but you never know what the fair board is going to do or what promoter you might be dealing with AND this was the first year of a single series.

Again, we'll just hafta agree to disagree. We're extremely far apart on our views.