Independence

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

But you know how it is in politics. There's no place for philosophical questions. It's not about people's aspirations but always the interest of powerful states. Unimportant states may have desires for hundred years,if their dreams don't met with a poweful state interest they can dream in vain.
I admit I didn't read a history book since I was in school. Last night I browsed one as I didn't want to make a fool of myself on the forum and I'm still shocked realising that every important moment in our history ( good or bad ) was posible only because X or Y had its own interest in that matter, some things we really wanted never happened cos there wasn't in the interest of X and sometimes parts of the country were "sold" to another country because X wanted to hit/ thank Y.

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I disagree. Things happen not because superpower X or influential person Y wanted it so, but because a combination of objective reasons dictated it. You may gain a bit more if you are lucky and you may lose a bit more if you are not, but most likely you won't be able to turn tides arbitrarily. Of course, some changes in Romanian borders were caused by diplomatic games of great powers but the overall extent of Romanian sovereignty boils down as much to domestic factors as to external ones.

We can also argue, that Kosovo independence is the product of U.S. foreign policy seeking to establish another satellite in the Balkans, but we should admit that Kosovars played their cards bloody well ever after WWII despite having been on the wrong side.

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

We can also argue, that Kosovo independence is the product of U.S. foreign policy seeking to establish another satellite in the Balkans, but we should admit that Kosovars played their cards bloody well ever after WWII despite having been on the wrong side.

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I agree with both, but I would say that the first reason contributed around 99,99% to Kosovo being allowed to declare their independence.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I agree very much with the first part of that. But let's not forget that one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. After all, Nelson Mandela was dubbed a terrorist by some (many, you could say.)

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Not without reason though...... but of course because of skin colour you can't say anything bad about Nelson :) That'd be racist you know :) I forgot to mention that Nelson wasn't actually a terrorist but a saboteur. Funny innit?

You know I don't mind freedom fighters but when they get involved in terrorist activities it should be out there for all to see. Not stuffed down the side of the couch that is history.

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Originally Posted by Camelopard

Last time I looked at an atlas the Baltic was a small area of water between Sweden and Finland :p .

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Last time I checked, I happened to live in a Baltic country. :eek: I give you three shots to guess which. :)

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Originally Posted by Erki

Last time I checked, I happened to live in a Baltic country. :eek: I give you three shots to guess which. :)

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I've got some Baltic pine timber in my house :) .

I haven't had a decent Balti for donkeys :(
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

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Originally Posted by donKey jote

I haven't had a decent Balti for donkeys :(
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

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:laugh:

Well, in the UK, this would be down to the current shortage of curry chefs caused by increasing immigration from eastern Europe and decreasing immigration from Asia!

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

:laugh:

Well, in the UK, this would be down to the current shortage of curry chefs caused by increasing immigration from eastern Europe and decreasing immigration from Asia!

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Not a problem here. We have two very good curry houses within about 5 minutes drive :facelick: I'll have a chicken korma please!

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

But you know how it is in politics. There's no place for philosophical questions. It's not about people's aspirations but always the interest of powerful states. Unimportant states may have desires for hundred years,if their dreams don't met with a poweful state interest they can dream in vain.
I admit I didn't read a history book since I was in school. Last night I browsed one as I didn't want to make a fool of myself on the forum and I'm still shocked realising that every important moment in our history ( good or bad ) was posible only because X or Y had its own interest in that matter, some things we really wanted never happened cos there wasn't in the interest of X and sometimes parts of the country were "sold" to another country because X wanted to hit/ thank Y.

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Though I agree with much of this, I also have to agree with much of what Rudy states directly following this.

Many times in history powerful nations have influenced such things, but there are also many times this influence has failed to change the course of events which as Rudy stated are driven by objective reasons.

In the end it may be a matter of how all of us define what is or is not a good for all involved, but such opinions would be more subjective to influence.




I would also like to say for with a few minor exceptions, this has been one of the best discussions in the general area for quite some time. If more topics could be discussed like this even when they sometimes contain heated opinions, we might all get more out of them.

It seems that the atmosphere is getting a little bit hot in Belgrade, certainly at the US embassy.