WRC future

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Originally Posted by Mirek

I have named only issues for which there is no known solution at the moment.

I stated that the claim of lower fire probability than with CE cars is nonsense because it is. There are simply no statistical data existing to support such claim and a probability is a statistical function. That is a fact.

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I agree with Mirek in his previous post, the small amount of experience I have had with Lithium batteries, is just what he said, unpredictable and uncontrollable once they go.
Obviously F1 & WEC have been using them for years, and I must admit that I am surprised that I don’t think I have seen a full battery meltdown/failure, although I may be mistaken there despite some massive accidents. But as he says, the remoteness and possibility for fire spread in WRC makes the consequences of that happening, potentially far greater.

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Originally Posted by Mirek

I have named only issues for which there is no known solution at the moment. I stated that the claim of lower fire probability than with CE cars is nonsense because it is. There are simply no statistical data existing to support such claim and a probability is a statistical function. That is a fact.

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another fact: if there's no statistic for claiming a thing, there's the same no statistic to claim the opposite. older way sometime is not the best way, despite our habits. so let's wait for the statistic before take a part. i get there's a strong bias going on, but time will tell.

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Originally Posted by doubled1978

I agree with Mirek in his previous post, the small amount of experience I have had with Lithium batteries, is just what he said, unpredictable and uncontrollable once they go.
Obviously F1 & WEC have been using them for years, and I must admit that I am surprised that I don’t think I have seen a full battery meltdown/failure, although I may be mistaken there despite some massive accidents. But as he says, the remoteness and possibility for fire spread in WRC makes the consequences of that happening, potentially far greater.

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paddon stated that they come up with a device that flood and destroy batteries in case of a fire menace: "The batteries you are now seeing in Motorsport cars like ours have a flooding system, so worse case scenario we pump water into the battery which destroys the battery, but saves the car."

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Originally Posted by wyler

another fact: if there's no statistic for claiming a thing, there's the same no statistic to claim the opposite. older way sometime is not the best way, despite our habits. so let's wait for the statistic before take a part. i get there's a strong bias going on, but time will tell.

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We do have some recent statistics of WRC cars burning out completely at WRC ralies, only those that I rememeber immediately- Lappi Fiesta Mexico 2020, Breen C3 Turkey 2018, Paddon/Tanak Portugal 2016?

(In neither of these the crew or other with extinguishers managed to stop the fire)

That's only completely burned out, parts or vegetation catching fire from hot exhaust is relatively common, though usually put out.

There was off course the large number of Polos (and Fabias) burned, even though that was a fuel tank design issue.

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Originally Posted by wyler

another fact: if there's no statistic for claiming a thing, there's the same no statistic to claim the opposite.

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I'm not claiming the otherwise. I'm calling the claim factually false.

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Originally Posted by doubled1978

I agree with Mirek in his previous post, the small amount of experience I have had with Lithium batteries, is just what he said, unpredictable and uncontrollable once they go.
Obviously F1 & WEC have been using them for years, and I must admit that I am surprised that I don’t think I have seen a full battery meltdown/failure, although I may be mistaken there despite some massive accidents. But as he says, the remoteness and possibility for fire spread in WRC makes the consequences of that happening, potentially far greater.

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Ae we sure F1 & WEC are using lithium batteries and not supercapacitors, which would be more suitable for short term storage and high charge/discharge rates?

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Originally Posted by wyler

paddon stated that they come up with a device that flood and destroy batteries in case of a fire menace: "The batteries you are now seeing in Motorsport cars like ours have a flooding system, so worse case scenario we pump water into the battery which destroys the battery, but saves the car."

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Where does the water come from?

I'd also like to know what happens if the water comes into contact with hot lithium. Doessn't that release hydrogen which in itself is a fire/explosion hazard.

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Originally Posted by Steve Boyd

Ae we sure F1 & WEC are using lithium batteries and not supercapacitors, which would be more suitable for short term storage and high charge/discharge rates?

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Yeah they do use Lithium.
In WEC initially Toyota used supercapcitors, and Audi a flywheel energy store, but both moved to lithium to compete with the Porsche which was lithium from the off.
Technically I don’t know why their initial solutions weren’t as good as lithium batteries, but I do know Porsche was able to reach the 8MJ sub class straight away, while the others could not.
F1 is definitely lithium as it’s controlled in the rules.

Amongst Mikkelsen's interview with Dirtfish: “I think we know there are not likely to be any new manufacturers coming in for 2022".

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Originally Posted by Steve Boyd

Ae we sure F1 & WEC are using lithium batteries and not supercapacitors, which would be more suitable for short term storage and high charge/discharge rates?

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Steve, F1 sacrifice a bit of energy density in order to obtain huge power densities - as I have mentioned previously the F1 battery cells can be safely charged/discharged in less than a minute. Cooling plays significant part in the above.