MN - The flaw in the R5 formula:
https://www.motorsport-news.co.uk/co...he-r5-formula/
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MN - The flaw in the R5 formula:
https://www.motorsport-news.co.uk/co...he-r5-formula/
Hmm I'm not sure really. I think you'd get cheaper options but if you want to actually be competitive you'd still need to be in a Fiesta/Fabia/Polo etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Also there's a lot more machinery in the UK that is being used outside the BRC. So I have to assume the car category isn't the only issue.
Exactly. While I would like to see a possibility to develope R5 cars without manufacturer involvement I do agree that there is very very little chance such car could ever be successful. The history repeatedly proves that there is direct corelation between the success rate and the effort spent, i.e. the manufacturers have huge advantage over any privateer. It has to be taken into account that R5 cars are no F1 and nobody can expect a serious interest of big private players. In the end the performance is what wins and cheap but slow cars have never ever managed to succeed.
I personaly dare to say that both with R5 and previous S2000 FIA finally found a working receipt on how to make regional/national championships great again.
I see where the article is coming from, particularly when you consider the Holzer situation, which it doesn't talk about, but I don't really like the tone. I appreciate it's the British/BRC centric Motorsport News, but I don't think you can or should judge the R5 category by the failures of the British Rally Championship or rallying in general in the UK. I certainly don't think we in the UK should dictate to the FIA what it should do with the R5s. Through mismanagement, bad fortune and changing circumstaces, the UK is not the rallying powerhouse it once was, we're in no position to call the shots...
I was thinking about the Holzer Corsa too.. what a shame it'll be if all that work goes to waste due to Opel not homologating it.
The MN article makes total sense. R5 (and R2) are well conceived categories, but having them developed exclusively by manus tuners make it too expensive. Letting private tuners get a piece of the pie would allow customers to have a larger and cheaper choice (even if less competitive) and eventually would force current builders to bring their prices down. If RGT and future R4 models can be homologated without the manus involvement, why can’t the same be allowed in R5?
Has that ever worked? No, it hasn't.
I mean there were tons of cheap Puntos, Protons, Polos, MGs S2000 around but nobody was buying them. It's sport and sport is about being competitive. Buying slow car is the same like to throw the money out of the window. Look, around 300 customers bought Fabias R5/S2000 despite them being the most expensive cars around. How many private Protons do You remember? One or two? In 2012 several drivers were offered a drive on Barum with Punto for the price of common gr.N car but nobody was interested because the car was already too slow against Fabias, Peugeots or Fiestas and it didn't help that those competitive cars cost 3-4x more.
If You can spend 250 thousand for competitive car or 200 thousand for virtually useless car which one You choose?
Besides that this model didn't work even when there was virtually no competition from true manufacturers - with R-GTs.
It worked fine in Gr. A days. There was room for low budget A8 cars like there’s room for low budget R5’s now. Take the Mirage R5 case: the announced price is €180K; that's less 80K than an i20 or a Fabia, which is a lot of money for privateers. The car is far from being ridiculous on gravel (there's no tarmac version simply because homologation didn't happened), so it's not hard to believe that it could be a reasonable alternative for the many Evo’s owners around the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
R Group was FIA’s definitive switch towards manus tuners. Even if today's rally cars are fantastic machines, their huge cost and the limited number of models available can hardly be seen as the only option to develop the sport. Bringing private tuners back, in a free market spirit (not as in the new R4) with a homologation friendly policy (the opposite of what happened in RGT), can only be positive.
Btw, the Puntos were developed by Fiat and their 0km price was on the same level of a 207. The Proton's and MG were limited scale projects and just a few S2000 Polos were brought to Europe by a Belgium team, but they were built by VW South Africa.
The Mirage R5 is listed as 180k, because that's the maximum price for an R5 allowed under the regulations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Same as the other cars....
The Mirage is hardly any success. The car isn't competitive against the top dogs, there is only few of them around and it will stay like that. Just like it was with all private S2000 cars. Proton Satria S2000 was much more competitive car and it still never broke to the market despite being cheaper and only slightly slower than the top cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
In my example with Puntos I didn't speak about new cars. In 2011-2012 a used Punto cost 1/3 of what a new Fabia or Fiesta yet nobody was buying or even using them. Everybody sane was buying the expensive but competitive cars. That used Punto wasn't worse than contemporary private cars which were moreover 2x more expensive because they were new. Logically if there was a market for cheap but somewhat slower cars the stages would be filled with used Puntos but they were not. Look at it also from sponsor's point of view. Why shall You give money to a project which is non-competitive from the very beginning no matter who sits behind the wheel? That's pure waste of money. And I don't even start to compare customer services which private teams can offer.
Argument with gr.A would be good if it wasn't quarter century later than that time. Again please look at R-GT. Even without any competition from works team the formula ended with total disaster because teams neither need nor want cars which aren't good for anything else than having fun.
Isnt there any trickle-down effect, with older used R5's getting into the hands of less wealthy privateers by now ?
The earliest R5's will be 5 years old next year - how much do they go for ?
In the long-term something has to replace the ageing Evos and Subarus...
Mirage is not R5 car, it's R5-wannabe, and still price is high and level is lower than R5... I know that car quite well...
I fully agree with Mirek, it's simply like that... if someone can spend 200k he will also be able to spend 250k for much better car. And running cost is quite smilar if you compare fast and slow R5 cars...
S2000 Polos were build in Belgium, not imported from SA.
How can the Mirage became a success without being homologated? The car showed some speed on gravel but MPart would need to sell more units to have means for a bigger development, and the only way to sell more units is by having Mitsubishi approval to homologate it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
For sure you’ll always need a top manu car to become champ, but there’s room for lower budget cars in any class. Even now the FIA is thinking on having R2 light, as R2 aren’t affordable for beginners. The same could happen in R5, once there are plenty of private drivers desiring to get more affordable 4wd rally cars (R4 will hardly be the solution with a single kit supplier).
Btw, it was told here many times: RGT didn’t work because the homologation process was too demanding and expensive for privateers.
Actually, the Mirage looked to be the only one respecting the FIA ‘limit’. Btw, once you don’t believe in that price, can you tell us how much a new Mirage R5 costs?Quote:
Originally Posted by rallyfiend
Using VW SA Polo S2000 homologation.Quote:
Originally Posted by br21
Anyway, besides getting a lowest price, to allow feasible private tuners homologations would also mean to have a larger diversity of models and brands in rally; I can't understand why people can't find that positive...are you all pleased with having only a handful of R2's and other with R5's?
Complete asphalt developement was done in Belgium. VW SA was behind the paperwork but not doing any asphalt development.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Feel free to bring any example which supports Your theory that this can work. We've seen more than 10 years of trying with plenty of private or semi-works projects some even of reasonable quality (Proton S2000) but none succeeded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
No, it didn't work because it brought cars useful only for fun lowing gentlemen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
I’m amazed; apparently you’re satisfy with having only a bunch of R2 models, costing close to €100K, and a handful of R5’s, costing over €250K, as only valid options for top national and international rally series.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
The reason of not being possible to get examples of successful privately developed rally cars examples is quite obvious: FIA rules are meant to undermine private tuners. Even on RGT (a manu free class), only a few teams managed to cope with FIA expensive bureaucracy.
Above all, I’m talking (and that seems to be also MN article purpose) about making the sport more affordable for beginners and privateers, by having a larger range of rally cars provided by private tuners, alongside those developed by manus official tuners, having top drivers and teams in mind.
It's You who said so, not me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
But anyway, both R2 and R5 are among the very most succesful formulas FIA has ever established and there is nothing more stupid than to change what is not broken. Now the problem with R2 is that there is a need for new technical formula following latest trends in car manufacturing, i.e. the move to the turbo engines because no manufacturers produce 1.6 NA engines anymore. But R2 were around for 10 years and they were hugely successful in that period.
No, the real reason is that creating successful cars needs huge money and plenty of very good people. Even if the privateer manages to create good car he can't offer adequate services to the customers. As an example the story of our localy developed Fabia R2. The car was build with quite serious financial backing. It had very good engine and gearing and overall good potential and it was homologated but it was proven to be near impossible to create functional customer support structure, i.e. spare parts delivery, engineers on demand etc. Also despite all the effort the details is what makes the best the best and that's where the manufacturers were always ahead. In the end the cars nearly disappeared which made them another example of this ever repeating story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Since I started to follow rallysport I keep hearing the same but the successful periods of my time in the sport were never symbolized by low cost and cheap cars. In fact it was exactly opposite. The most successful periods were always those with expensive and very spectacular cars which brought crowds to the stages and stirred the attention of the media. Speaking for CZ the by far worst period was when gr.N was the top category and the most successful was when WRC cars were allowed (by the public attention by far) and later again with S2000/R5 cars. I believe that applies for plenty of other countries. Everybody was claiming that WRC cars were crazy expensive yet in those times many teams could afford them because the public and sponsors were interested in them. On the other hand You could see how miserably the British experiment with cheap and affordable national championship ended.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Anyway back to the topic. What the sport needs is not non-factory R5 cars. It needs update of R2 formula to bring new cars based on the latest generation of stock cars. And it needs a big support from FIA towards projects like Opel Adam cup which is absolutely perfect platform to start rallying with.
This is not about having cheap rally cars instead of expensive ones. This is about finding ways to make possible to have both, as currently only the expensive cars are available.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Having light R2 and R5 categories would be interesting, especially if private tuners could get involved on their homologation.
They have R1 spec cars already being built which are fairly basic version of the R2/R3 cars.
R2 cars can be had for 55-70k depending on options so not quite 100k.
R1 formula isn't really working. There is definitely a lot of space for improvement there.
Isn't that the problem? All up to R5 formula 3 are not working out of 5. In my math that's bad.
Of course it is a problem but it is not a problem of R5 where this discussion started and what this topic is about.
Yes, not for this specific category, which spans who was it - Skoda, M-Sport/Ford and who else? May be the rest should focus on R4 category instead of racing donkeys with horses?!?
EDIT: Seems to me in WRC category are more competitive manufacturers/brands than in R5, I find this very strange in this broad sport.
All the TV coverage is focused on WRC cars not R5 cars. You'd be surprised at how many people don't even know who is in the fight for R5. They only care for WRC.Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
That's natural development. Everytime the top dogs step by step force the unsuccessul out. Besides that in many countries Citroëns and Peugeots are still competitive. They lost WRC2 big time but that's how it goes. They will try again with C3 R5 next year and hopefully they will do better.Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
As I wrote before. Where there is public interest there are money to buy and to build. The resources which can be spent in WRC are totally uncomparable with what You can get out of ERC or national championships. It's only marketing after all. What was totally wrong was when there were only two manufacturers in WRC. That was the time when the potential of WRC was left unused. Now it's how it shall be.Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
C3 R5 announced on Monday ?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DItqTB4XcAE4Ugf.jpg:large
That's one ugly car. Hope it's working better than it looks.
DS3 is beautifull. That is horrendous (like WRC).
C3 R5 testing...
https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/1...r5-for-wrc2erc
Yeah that's not a pretty car. From that front shot it reminds me of the Mirage.
FIRST DEVELOPMENT TESTS FOR THE CITROËN C3 R5!
After a year of research, calculation and design work, Citroën Racing is holding the first development tests for the C3 R5 this week.
An entirely new product intended for customer racing, the Citroën C3 R5 aims to become the new benchmark in its category.
Since 2013, the R5 regulations devised by the FIA have led to the appearance of a new generation of rally cars. Designed for private teams and drivers, these reduced-cost products are often described as "mini-WRCs" due to their technical characteristics: four-wheel drive, 1.6-litre direct injection turbo engine generating about 280bhp, sequential semi-automatic gearbox, etc.
The success enjoyed by the category also comes down to its universal appeal: the R5s compete in the WRC 2, the ERC and in most of the national championships. The cornerstone of the renewed customer racing line-up at Citroën Racing, the C3 R5 will shortly be ready for competitive action!
"We are reaching an important milestone this week with the first development tests of the car, which is already close to the finished product," explained Yves Matton, Citroën Racing Team Principal. "The specifications given to the technical teams are clear: we want the Citroën C3 R5 to set new standards in the category, in terms of performance, reliability and controlled operating costs. In order to create an entirely new product, we used all of Citroën Racing's experience in the WRC, adding contributions from leading technical suppliers such as Sadev for the transmission and Reiger for the suspension systems. Our works drivers will also be taking part in development of the car: Stéphane Lefebvre and Craig Breen are driving in this first session, along with Yoann Bonato, the current leader of the French Rally Championship."
Design work on the Citroën C3 R5 began about a year ago. In addition to the work done in the design and calculation office, most of the mechanical components have been tested in real conditions, on test mules driven since the start of 2017.
"For the first outing of the full car, we are already pretty close to the definition that will be offered to customers. The sessions are being held on gravel, on sufficiently varied road surfaces to test the car's robustness and begin fine-tuning the basic set-up," explained Pierre Budar, Development Director, Customer Racing Vehicles. "There is a direct link between the C3 R5 and the C3 WRC: for example, the roll cage of the two cars was designed by the same engineer. Some solutions have been re-used, whilst adapting them to the constraints of the regulations and small-scale production. Similarly, the engine has been developed in-house, based on the unit used on the production model, therefore providing the greatest potential in terms of performance and reliability. We have also chosen to work together with the best suppliers. Overall, we have an even, consistent product, capable of meeting the goals of the customers that choose the Citroën C3 R5."
Following these first test sessions, Citroën Racing will be pursuing development of the C3 R5 on both gravel and tarmac, calling upon various drivers with different profiles in order to achieve a genuinely versatile product. FIA homologation is scheduled for 2018.
http://int-media.citroen.com/en/firs...o%C3%ABn-c3-r5
Anyone knows which base engine they used this time?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...by%2C_2009.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira
"Similarly, the engine has been developed in-house, based on the unit used on the production model, therefore providing the greatest potential in terms of performance and reliability."Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
But there is no 1.6 petrol in the production C3 range...
Maybe a 1,8 or 2,0 with shorter stroke?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Sent fra min XP7700 via Tapatalk
If we say 250k € for a top notch R5 with both gravel and asfalt setup.Quote:
Originally Posted by br21
How much will a Mirage with same equipment cost?
You can buy two used ones with spares and container for EUR325,000. http://rallycarsforsale.net/ads/mitsubishi-mirage-ap4/Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
That's saying pretty much nothing. R5 can use engine from whatever car in the manufacturer's range. It doesn't need to be from the said model.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Do they have something suitable in production? I'm not that much informed about current PSA engine portfolio.Quote:
Originally Posted by skarderud