What Happens Next?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpralon

I didn't want to insult any IRL fan, but I can't disconnect crashes involving multiple cars from IRL's image. I can't remember any oval IRL race without crashes and there are rumors that the series champion have gone to NASCAR due to security risks . So if somebody really doesn't want to see dangerous crashes and support IRL races seems to me a kind of incoherence. Crashes are part of motor sports but in IRL recently they have happened over limits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbyars

Let's see your proof. How about offering us the following:

Number of crashes OF ANY KIND per mile raced in 2007 for:
IRL
CCWS
ALMS
Grand Am
NASCAR

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpralon

I will give you more effective data.

Last drivers who died in top racing series:

IRL : Paul Dana (2006) and Tony Renna (2003)
NASCAR : Dale Earnhardt Sr. (2001)
CART/CC: Gonzalo Rodrigues an Gred Morre ( 1999)
F1: Airton Senna and Roland Ratzenberger (1994)

Quote:

Originally Posted by garyshell

Sorry, no that is not effective data at all when you were talking about the number of crashes. Now you want to switch horses and talk about the number of deaths.

Nope, keep it on topic. What were the number of crashes per mile driven in the series?

Quote:

Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!

My god, what does this have to do with anything? I got "hit" from starter talking about the reality of the sport, that people die and we go here.

I think people need to grow up as this topic is for teenagers. As a person that lost person friends in Open Wheel I am offended by topics like this! :mad:

Ah, I see. So you want to take my single sentence from a thread and insinuate that I am the one being callous or sophomoric? You really are a piece of work. tbyars and I were attempting to show how inane the comments that rpralon made about IRL fans wanting to see crashes and the high number of crashes he thinks there are in the IRL. If you had bothered to read the thread before trying again to pick a fight, you might have understood. But to save you the time of having to go back through the history of those messages in the thread, I pulled the pertinent ones out for you.

Gary

From Fox Sports

IRL 2007

XM Satellite Radio Indy 300 Results

14 Danica Patrick 13 #7 Honda 0 154 accident 16 $39,100
16 Kosuke Matsuura 16 #55 Honda 3 92 accident 14 $38,600
17 Jeff Simmons 20 #17 Honda 0 90 accident 13 $35,200
18 A.J. Foyt IV 9 #22 Honda 0 90 accident 12 $35,200

Peak Antifreeze Indy 300 Results

18 Vitor Meira 15 #4 Honda 0 133 contact 12 $33,600
22 Marco Andretti 10 #26 Honda 0 34 contact 12 $31,300

Indy Japan 300 Results

16 Marco Andretti 10 #26 Honda 0 134 accident 14 $57,800
18 Kosuke Matsuura 9 #55 Honda 0 0 accident 12 $55,500

Kansas Lottery Indy 300

13 Scott Sharp 14 #8 Honda 0 195 contact 17 $39,600
17 Ed Carpenter 13 #20 Honda 0 99 contact 13 $34,400

Indy 500

17 Ed Carpenter 14 #20 Honda 0 164 accident 13 $246,305

22 Dan Wheldon 6 #10 Honda 0 163 accident 12 $231,805
24 Marco Andretti 9 #26 Honda 13 162 accident 12 $229,351
25 Buddy Rice 16 #15 Honda 0 162 accident 10 $222,805
27 Jaques Lazier 28 #21 Honda 2 155 accident 10 $207,389
28 Marty Roth 30 #25 Honda 0 148 accident 10 $216,305
29 Phil Giebler 33 #31 Honda 0 106 accident 10 $230,305
30 John Andretti 24 #33 Honda 0 95 accident 10 $204,305
31 Milka Duno 29 #23 Honda 0 65 accident 10 $213,555
32 Jon Herb 27 #19 Honda 0 51 accident 10 $193,305
33 Roberto Moreno 31 #77 Honda 0 36 accident 10 $224,805

ABC Supply/A.J. Foyt Indy 225

5 Marco Andretti 14 #26 Honda 0 209 contact 15 $39,900
16 Helio Castroneves 1 #3 Honda 126 201 contact 17 $48,500
18 Buddy Rice 7 #15 Honda 37 156 contact 12 $39,000

Bombardier Learjet 550k

15 Dan Wheldon 10 #10 Honda 52 196 contact 15 $37,900
16 Helio Castroneves 5 #3 Honda 0 196 contact 14 $36,600
17 A.J. Foyt IV 17 #22 Honda 0 195 contact 13 $35,200
18 Ed Carpenter 20 #20 Honda 0 195 contact 12 $35,200
20 Jon Herb 14 #19 Honda 0 44 contact 12 $32,600

Iowa Corn Indy 250

12 A.J. Foyt IV 10 #22 Honda 0 99 contact 18 $43,100
13 Danica Patrick 11 #7 Honda 1 99 contact 17 $41,800
14 Sam Hornish Jr. 8 #6 Honda 0 99 contact 16 $40,200
15 Kosuke Matsuura 16 #55 Honda 0 99 contact 15 $38,900
16 Tony Kanaan 7 #11 Honda 0 85 contact 14 $37,500
17 Jeff Simmons 6 #17 Honda 0 85 contact 13 $36,100
19 Tomas Scheckter 14 #2 Honda 0 0 contact 12 $34,600

SunTrust Indy Challenge

17 Kosuke Matsuura 18 #55 Honda 0 236 contact 13 $36,100
18 Jeff Simmons 11 #17 Honda 0 153 contact 12 $36,100

Camping World Watkins Glen Grand Prix
18 Helio Castroneves 1 #3 Honda 19 19 contact 12 $47,000

Firestone Indy 200

16 Kosuke Matsuura 13 #55 Honda 0 182 contact 14 $38,500
18 Tony Kanaan 3 #11 Honda 0 35 contact 12 $37,000

The Honda 200 at Mid-Ohio

8 Marco Andretti 4 #26 Honda 0 0 contact 12 $37,000

Firestone Indy 400

11 Tomas Scheckter 6 #2 Honda 2 144 contact 19 $43,200
12 Dan Wheldon 5 #10 Honda 24 143 contact 18 $41,900
13 Dario Franchitti 1 #27 Honda 101 143 contact 20 $50,700
14 Ed Carpenter 10 #20 Honda 0 143 contact 16 $39,100
15 Darren Manning 18 #14 Honda 0 113 contact 15 $37,900
16 Sarah Fisher 16 #5 Honda 0 83 contact 14 $36,600
17 Helio Castroneves 3 #3 Honda 0 58 contact 13 $35,200
18 Vitor Meira 11 #4 Honda 0 58 contact 12 $35,200
20 Jon Herb 20 #19 Honda 0 26 contact 12 $32,600

Meijer Indy 300

16 Danica Patrick 11 #7 Honda 0 180 contact 14 $38,500
17 Dan Wheldon 5 #10 Honda 0 37 contact 13 $37,000
18 Sam Hornish Jr. 7 #6 Honda 0 35 contact 12 $37,000

Motorola Indy 300
15 A.J. Foyt IV 15 #22 Honda 0 71 contact 15 $39,900
16 Marco Andretti 8 #26 Honda 2 68 contact 14 $40,500

Detroit Indy Grand Prix
7 Buddy Rice 15 #15 Honda 7 87 contact 26 $52,400
8 Scott Dixon 3 #9 Honda 0 87 contact 24 $49,000
13 Tomas Scheckter 9 #2 Honda 0 67 contact 17 $43,000
14 Helio Castroneves 1 #3 Honda 26 67 contact 16 $51,300
15 Vitor Meira 10 #4 Honda 0 31 contact 15 $39,900
16 Sarah Fisher 18 #5 Honda 0 29 contact 14 $38,500

Peak Antifreeze Indy 300
18 Vitor Meira 15 #4 Honda 0 133 contact 12 $33,600
22 Marco Andretti 10 #26 Honda 0 34 contact 12 $31,300

CCWS 2007

Vegas Grand Prix

3 Sebastien Bourdais 16 #1 0 30 contact -- $18,000
15 Dan Clarke 12 #4 0 13 contact -- $17,000
16 Matt Halliday 14 #42 0 3 contact -- $16,000
17 Graham Rahal 10 #2 0 1 contact -- $16,000

Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach

16 Alex Figge 16 #29 0 69 contact -- $16,000
17 Mario Dominguez 10 #7 0 7 contact -- $16,000

Grand Prix of Houston
15 Neel Jani 4 #21 0 67 contact -- $17,000
16 Katherine Legge 17 #11 0 67 contact -- $16,000
17 Dan Clarke 12 #4 0 67 contact -- $16,000

Mazda Grand Prix of Portland
No contact or accident

LaSalle Bank Grand Prix of Cleveland

13 Tristan Gommendy 12 #22 0 34 contact -- $18,000
14 Jan Heylen 17 #34 0 34 contact -- $17,000
16 Bruno Junqueira 14 #19 0 6 contact -- $16,000

Grand Prix of Mont-Tremblant

No contact or accident

Steelback Grand Prix of Toronto

9 Sebastien Bourdais 1 #1 1 67 contact -- $20,000
10 Oriol Servia 3 #7 34 56 contact -- $19,000
11 Graham Rahal 15 #2 0 52 contact -- $19,000
12 Dan Clarke 13 #4 0 43 contact -- $18,000
13 Jan Heylen 8 #34 0 1 contact -- $18,000
14 Paul Tracy 10 #3 0 0 contact -- $17,000
15 Tristan Gommendy 14 #22 0 0 contact -- $17,000
16 Katherine Legge 16 #11 0 0 contact -- $16,000
17 Alex Figge 17 #29 0 0 contact -- $16,000

Rexall Grand Prix of Edmonton

14 Alex Tagliani 9 #8 0 69 contact -- $17,000

San Jose Grand Prix

4 Alex Figge 17 #29 0 84 contact -- $17,000
16 Katherine Legge 16 #11 0 13 contact -- $16,000
17 Dan Clarke 3 #4 0 6 contact -- $16,000

Generac Grand Prix

No contact or accident

Belgian Champ Car Grand

No contact or accident

Bavaria Beer Champ Car Grand Prix

No contact or accident

Lexmark Indy 300

16 Will Power 1 #5 10 18 contact -- $16,000
17 Dan Clarke 10 #4 0 12 contact -- $16,000

Gran Premio Tecate

No contact or accident

CCWS 2007

14 races
27 contact or accident
1.92 contact or accident /race

IRL 2007
16 races
64 contact or accident
4 contact or accident /race

IRL 2007 had 2 times more contact or accident /race than CCWS 2007!!!

It's clear now ??

I'm 100 percent in agreement with Gary and tb.

All motorsports are dangerous. That element will always be there, regardless. The great strides made in safety through the years are known to real racing people and they know and acknowledge them.

I detest people trying to play agenda-driven specific "safety cards," because they all get "bitten" along the way in every form of motorsport and it's a tragedy when ANYBODY gets hurt and a very bad thing when equipment gets destroyed.

I had more to write, but Starter would shoot me if I did.

EDIT: rpralon, you can also take THAT nonsense and throw it away. Those come from boxscores during races as "reasons out." They do NOT count contacts or incidents that happened during practice, qualifying or during the race in which the car was fixed and kept going, or brushed a wall and continued, or spun in front of two guys who crashed and continued. That was a lot of work to come up with something absolutely worthless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpralon

I will give you more effective data.

Last drivers who died in top racing series:

IRL : Paul Dana (2006) and Tony Renna (2003)
NASCAR : Dale Earnhardt Sr. (2001)
CART/CC: Gonzalo Rodrigues an Gred Morre ( 1999)
F1: Airton Senna and Roland Ratzenberger (1994)

AS horrible as it is to loose any driver to an accident of any kind ther eare some you have missed during that time frame and as I recall, only three of the above were during an actual race.

Rpalon...and all those stats mean what? Both series wreck race cars? Champ Car guys were making less than half of what IRL drivers were making?

Listen, stats will show not many useful trends in a 1 year sample. I would wager if one was to do such a gholuish exercise as crashes per mile or race, do it for the the history of both series.

I do know this much. Oval racing has greater repecussions in crash situations due to higher speeds, but I wouldn't say it was inheritly more likely one would wreck. I would also say that oval racing is interesting in the right venue, and many drivers might agree. Ovals are not going to go away and neither are the street or road courses. I wish people wouldn't try to open up this can of worms.

No form of racing is perfectly safe, but I do think in the future going forth, racing will be more safe. After that...all bets are off.

It also helps by supplying cars that don't pretend to be airplanes!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=00RkJTAiZ28&feature=related

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpralon

CCWS 2007

14 races
27 contact or accident
1.92 contact or accident /race

IRL 2007
16 races
64 contact or accident
4 contact or accident /race

Ok, you are zeroing in on some REAL numbers. Good. But the best comparison would be accidents per driven mile.

Take your numbers you have for each event and average that against the number of drivers multiplied by the number of miles in the event. That is a gross number. More accurate than the accidents per event number, but still an inflated number, because it assumes everyone in the event drove every lap.

The REAL number would be the number of crashes averaged against the total number of miles actually driven by the participants. For example in a 2.5 mile race if driver x went out after 10 laps he would contribute 30 driver miles to the total. Another driver who made all 500 miles would contribute 500. While a third who finished the race two laps back would contribute 495 miles.

I suspect these numbers will close the gap a bit. I am curious how much.

Gary

Quote:

Originally Posted by indycool

rpralon, you can also take THAT nonsense and throw it away. Those come from boxscores during races as "reasons out." They do NOT count contacts or incidents that happened during practice, qualifying or during the race in which the car was fixed and kept going, or brushed a wall and continued, or spun in front of two guys who crashed and continued. That was a lot of work to come up with something absolutely worthless.

Good point about the miles driven in practice and/or qualifying and the incidents there. To get even more accurate numbers those could be taken into account as well.

And you are right his "incident numbers" would only take into account the incidents that took someone out, and not the ones where the car continued. While, in my mind, the practice/qualifying numbers might be "optional" in a real evaluation, certainly the continued on incidents and miles would HAVE to be factored in.

This is a bit of a morbid exercise to be sure, but I think it would once and for all put to rest the notion that the ICS has more crashes. I honestly think that with proper stats applied we would find the incident rate to be very comparable in both series.

Gary