People Power

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Originally Posted by chuck34

After all what is a group other than a collection of individuals?

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

A group is a collection of individuals who work together to achieve a common set of goals. A politcal movement for example.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Ok so you don't believe in individual responsibility then. Everyone must do things in a "group" or "movement".

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Quite how you deduce that from my answer to your question is beyond me I'm afraid. Nowhere do I say that I do not believe in individual responsibility, or the ability of individuals to progress.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Your original two choice "views" were typically too black and white. You want to make this about the "group" because if one does not do well, then you can claim that no one is doing well.

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Again, not my point and I am not claiming that at all.

It was simply a way of condensing how I see the basic differences expressed in this thread.

Hey ho :dozey:

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Why do you have this obsession with lumping everyone together? Do you have no concept of personal responsibility?

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I never at any point claimed I do not believe in personal responsibility. However, for many things in economics, not everything is efficient if the responsibility for solving problems is held on individuals.

Should society for instance pay for my motor car? No, that's a stupid proposition because the optimal sharing group two own a motor car is in most cases less than about 2. How about the roads which said motor car drives on? Admittedly you could have private firms build, own and operate them but the most efficient position is the collective ownership of roads by the state because the optimal sharing group of roads is the entire population.

The thing is though, the optimal sharing group to solve all sorts of problems is the community as a whole but you seem to "have this obsession with" not looking at any problems as though they should and can be solved by the community as a whole. Obviously there are a number of cases when individual simple do not have the individual power, capital or momentum to change things.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Can't answer for Rollo, but this highlights how these problems seem to be viewed differently:

1. There is no problem because an individual can progress[/*:m:34i2ql24]
2. There is a problem because in a global context inequality is increasing[/*:m:34i2ql24]

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I've asked this many pages back and didn't get any answers.

If global equality is a primary goal, who here is willing to create that equality when the average wage globally is less than $10,000? I suspect the reality for most is that they want more of what the wealthier people have in terms of equality, but they certain don't want more of what the less wealthy have in terms of equality.

So the reality of the situation is that the vast majority of us in devoloped western nations are in fact the people with the majority of the worlds wealth.

So who here is protesting how fortunate we all are?

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Originally Posted by airshifter

So who here is protesting how fortunate we all are?

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I believe very few people here care about the truly poor. It's a dispute between justhaves and havemores. Obviously, justhaves are not satisfied with their lot and think havemores are too fortunate.

1 in 2 Americans Are Poor or Low Income: U.S. Census

1 in 2 Americans Are Poor or Low Income: U.S. Census - International Business Times

I know it's hard to find exact numbers during a national census but these figures if true, are mind boggling to say the least. :(

Houston, there is a problem!!!!! No s***t Sherlock!!!!! :mad:

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Almost half of the U.S. population is either low-income or has fallen into poverty, according to The Associated Press, which reports new data from the U.S. Census Bureau depicts a dwindling middle class as the result of persistently high unemployment, rising living costs and unraveling social safety net programs.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

If global equality is a primary goal, who here is willing to create that equality when the average wage globally is less than $10,000?

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Who is willing to? The American people!

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Originally Posted by race aficionado

1 in 2 Americans Are Poor or Low Income: U.S. Census
1 in 2 Americans Are Poor or Low Income: U.S. Census - International Business Times

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Originally Posted by airshifter

they certain don't want more of what the less wealthy have in terms of equality.

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Yet that appears to be what they're getting isn't it?

Still that's fine I suppose, this thread has taught us that you can always keep on blaming it on laziness can't you? ;)

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Originally Posted by race aficionado

1 in 2 Americans Are Poor or Low Income: U.S. Census

1 in 2 Americans Are Poor or Low Income: U.S. Census - International Business Times

I know it's hard to find exact numbers during a national census but these figures if true, are mind boggling to say the least. :(

Houston, there is a problem!!!!! No s***t Sherlock!!!!! :mad:

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One in two, low income? Look I live in Memphis TN, and the poverty level and low income level is high, but this doesn't pass the smell test. Heck median income is $50,000, and $48,445 (199% of poverty level for a family of four) is low income according to them. Their definitions are wrong, or it needs to be adjusted for geographic area.

Census Bureau Clarifies Poverty Numbers | NBC Los Angeles

I went looking and that number has been misinterpreted. To be certain there are still a lot of low income people, but not one in two. Wow, watch out what you report!

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On Thursday, reports in multiple news outlets suggested that people making roughly twice the poverty level under the experimental program were “scraping by” and should be considered low-income.

The Census Bureau does not support that interpretation of the data, Short said.

“Below 200 percent of the poverty threshold is the lower end of the distribution," Short said. "But we would not call it low-income per se.”

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Who is willing to? The American people!


Yet that appears to be what they're getting isn't it?

Still that's fine I suppose, this thread has taught us that you can always keep on blaming it on laziness can't you? ;)

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You would actually have to read and understand the article to take it into proper perspective. The Census figures report income only, and as stated above by Alexamateo hardly define "poor". Being based on income alone it also does not account for any assistance programs, tax breaks and credits, or any measure of the wealth of the family. Being our taxes are very forgiving to those with less income some of those people can be living almost as well as those out making more money.

But I suspect you could care less about the facts, as they still show that one of those "poor" US families could be making 6 to 7 times the global average income. And as I pointed out above, if one of the issue is more financial equality on a global level, someone in the US or Australia making median income is among the wealthiest in the world. Based on that we are the wealthy people not looking out for those less fortunate.

Based on global numbers, someone making 1/2 of what is considered poverty level for a family of four is still among the richest 13% of people in the world. So for all the people here wanting more equality, you better start seeking out charities.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Should society for instance pay for my motor car? No,

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So you were against the GM and Ford bailouts and against tax breaks for Hybrids and Alternative energy vehicles?