GT Class

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Originally Posted by Sulland

This is how they buildt their name.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyPb_24ThUQ

Not everyone need to win overall, for some it is enough to win in class.

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You just proved my point. They were involved when they were winning overall.

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Originally Posted by Rally Power

For a long time Skoda has not been runing for WRC overall wins and still they seem quite pleased to continue involved on a WRC secondary category.

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You clearly missed the point.

1) Škoda has been directly fighting their market peers.
2) Škoda has been fighting for overall victories in IRC, ERC, national championships, MERC, CODASUR, APRC. It only has not been fighting for overall victories on WRC events but nevertheless it took world championship titles in WRC2 which has a reasonable marketing value.

None of this applies for any GT manufacturer.

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Originally Posted by stefanvv

Porsche has some (successful) heritage in rallying, even in the toughest one - Safari, the others don't. Call it nostalgia if You wish, people still enjoy seeing this brand on the stages, moreover it has something different to offer from the shopping trolleys.

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Well, the talk was about the brand involvement. Imagine to come to the managing board of Porsche and say that you want a budget to make a project which will bring them nothing but it will be fun. Motorsport is a business activity not a reenactment of historical events. Even those forty years a go it was.

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Originally Posted by pantealex

Brands get nothing, yes.

But me as spectator, I wan´t to see more different modern rally cars.

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Sure but it's the brands who need to get something to make it worth their money and there is nothing rallying can currently offer to premium brands.

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Originally Posted by Mirek

You clearly missed the point.

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Nope. I’ve responded to a direct comment mentioning RGT as a lower class with no interest to manus and use Skoda example once they got involved in rally, including in the WRC, throught lower classes, long before producing state of the art rally cars; actually, just like most manus historically did, including Alpine.

I imagine this will go into an endless (and possibily boring) ping-pong debate for which I won’t have much time today, so I’ll try to be clear giving my view on RGT.

GT brands didn’t quit rallysport for elitist reasons; they were forced to leave after Gr.B ban, once their cars didn’t cope with Gr.A (or WRC, S2000, R5) rules. Besides, WRC manus weren’t later eager, probably having the 2L Kit-car example in mind, to allow part time GT entries in the series.

Nevertheless, some ASN’s let private drivers and teams to run low tuned GT cars in national series, for the joy of local fans. Surprisingly, or not, this few GT outings become notorious and the videos of modern 911’s rallying got viral, raising the interest of more drivers and fans in other countries. At same point the low tuned national GT cars turned into competitive rally machines and start wining overall national rallys and even championships, which probably wasn’t very appreciated by WRC or S2000 brands.

Soon the FIA started to follow the matter and restrictors were imposed to the private GT cars, making them clearly less competitive. At the same time, the FIA launch RGT class for international use, but its limiting rules immediately make clear it wouldn’t allow GT brands to make especially competitive rally cars.

Anyway, thanks to the passion of private drivers and teams and even a few brands, GT’s are still runing in special stages and making rally fans happy, at least until the FIA decides to ban them again.

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Originally Posted by Mirek

Well, the talk was about the brand involvement. Imagine to come to the managing board of Porsche and say that you want a budget to make a project which will bring them nothing but it will be fun. Motorsport is a business activity not a reenactment of historical events. Even those forty years a go it was.

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Surely it'll bring them some popularity among those who go to watch the rallies. Or You think they're dumb enough not to realize there are class differences? It's the same handicap with the GT Am class in Le Mans races. They have no chance even competing with the GT Pro class, not to mention the LMP classes.

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Originally Posted by stefanvv

Surely it'll bring them some popularity among those who go to watch the rallies. Or You think they're dumb enough not to realize there are class differences?

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Oh come, on. You can not be serious thinking that this is worth investment. The marketing value of such existence on stages is similar to the marketing value of the car being parked on the street. It's there and it's nice. But motorsport is about sport success and there is no success to be achieved.

Seriously - the people running the companies are not dumb. They know what brings them something and they know why they have not been involved for decades.

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Originally Posted by Rally Power

Nope. I’ve responded to a direct comment mentioning RGT as a lower class with no interest to manus and use Skoda example once they got involved in rally, including in the WRC, throught lower classes, long before producing state of the art rally cars; actually, just like most manus historically did, including Alpine.

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The problem with your theory is that you use completely incomparable cases. Škoda was a cheap brand from the Eastern block which actually was involved on the top level of the sport in its country and in the Eastern block. It competed in the west with what it had and the prime reason why it was successful was that it was involved on the works level in the field where mainly privateers competed against it. But this was pure necessity because the company was working in the pre-planned-economy of the Eastern block and not allowed to produce large engines.

All of that makes its story completely irrelevant to premium brands such as Porsche or Ferrari.

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Originally Posted by Rally Power

GT brands didn’t quit rallysport for elitist reasons; they were forced to leave after Gr.B ban, once their cars didn’t cope with Gr.A (or WRC, S2000, R5) rules. Besides, WRC manus weren’t later eager, probably having the 2L Kit-car example in mind, to allow part time GT entries in the series.

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As You said yourself - the environment for GT brand success in rallying is gone. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Rally Power

Nevertheless, some ASN’s let private drivers and teams to run low tuned GT cars in national series, for the joy of local fans. Surprisingly, or not, this few GT outings become notorious and the videos of modern 911’s rallying got viral, raising the interest of more drivers and fans in other countries. At same point the low tuned national GT cars turned into competitive rally machines and start wining overall national rallys and even championships, which probably wasn’t very appreciated by WRC or S2000 brands.

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As far as I know GT cars managed to win exactly two important national championships - Spanish asphalt one and German (with a competition level nowhere near Spain). Out of hundreds of championship. That small success was achieved thanks to basically no limitation in the rules. That means that in this case the GTs were placed into the privileged role against the others - and that's exactly what I talked about all the time. This is a place where premium brands belong. However even this can work only in very specific environment which is best shown by lack of success of similar cars anywhere else.

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Originally Posted by Rally Power

Soon the FIA started to follow the matter and restrictors were imposed to the private GT cars, making them clearly less competitive. At the same time, the FIA launch RGT class for international use, but its limiting rules immediately make clear it wouldn’t allow GT brands to make especially competitive rally cars.

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True and again that's what the talk is about all the time. GT can work only if placed in privileged position against the competitors.

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Originally Posted by Rally Power

Anyway, thanks to the passion of private drivers and teams and even a few brands, GT’s are still runing in special stages and making rally fans happy, at least until the FIA decides to ban them again.

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Yes and how is that relevant to the discussion about brand involvement?

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Originally Posted by Mirek

Well, the talk was about the brand involvement. Imagine to come to the managing board of Porsche and say that you want a budget to make a project which will bring them nothing but it will be fun. Motorsport is a business activity not a reenactment of historical events. Even those forty years a go it was.

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If they can build a good reasonable priced car, they could sell al lot of them. Thus making them profitable. Just like you mentioned skoda does. Just like basically every rallycar manufacturer does, with the exception of the wrc cars.

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Originally Posted by denkimi

If they can build a good reasonable priced car, they could sell al lot of them. Thus making them profitable. Just like you mentioned skoda does. Just like basically every rallycar manufacturer does, with the exception of the wrc cars.

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Do You actually believe you can sell enough of GT rally cars to make profit of it? Good luck then.

The reason, why R5 or R2 is so popular (or not so popular, compared to gr. N) is that it is an allrounder. Be it ERC, WRC, MERC, APRC or some nationals, on snow, on tarmac, on gravel...it`s created for all of those. If you want to have fun in a fast RWD rallycar, you build yourself a M3 for less...many other suitable donors in addition ofc.

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Originally Posted by Mirek

Do You actually believe you can sell enough of GT rally cars to make profit of it? Good luck then.

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And what is with the new Cayman GT4 project? Porsche will build this car for rally customers, won't they?

They admit openly that they need to sell at least 100 of them. We'll see if they succeed or not. Anyway since it's a production car it won't cost them a fortune if they fail so not that big risk for them.