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but it could also end the other way round....you dont have to be the fastest driver out there, you simply have to go "proper" speed from start to finish, have a little bit luck with tire choice and you can end up very high up in the leaderboard!Quote:
Originally Posted by AndersX
I would say that pay drivers care more about fun than ending up in leaderboard. You know, 6th place won't make you famous.
Also still the risk is much higher.
Well if they really only care about Tänak, they should still have one other car with a somewhat capable driver. Sending him for the championship alongside tourists is not gona help his chances.
That's true. A good team mate can take pts off other championship rivals, and be used in extreme cases to gift positions to your lead driver. However the best we can hope for at Msport is Loeb does 4or 5 events, and Loubet gets most of the season. Greensmith will pay for his full season, but he's not a help.
However, having a team of those 4 drivers is a hell of a lot better than Msport going into this season without Tanak.
They are probably just trying to get Red Bull to pay for the Loeb car in MC, or most of it. Negotiations played in public.
Motorsport.com: "Tanak says he has been assured that M-Sport will be able to maintain the development of the Puma to ensure it remains competitive against the factory Toyota and Hyundai teams that boast bigger budgets.
"I'm sure there is the potential," added Tanak. "The team has a great infrastructure and they have strong support from Ford also, so if we all work together and we really want it badly then we can make everything happen."
If there was any need for clarification on the scale of Ford's involvement, then this is it.
That may very well mean that pay drivers won't be anywhere near as important as they have been. And given that the drivers title appears to be the focus, M-Sport aren't likely to be pulling all stops for second-tier drivers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 240RS
So it is pretty much the same sentence that was quoted on dirtfish article and many others. And from that motorsport.com says The Puma will be developed well, probably is like that but i would take this article with a grain of salt
Full article if anyone is interested https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/...tle-/10410889/Quote:
Originally Posted by 240RS
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As a former world champion, I'm sure that Tanak will be as demanding as Ogier was when he joined M-Sport - ensuring everyone gives their best and most professional work - and in a way that Breen never could've done.
So how did M-Sport pull off the signing of the silly season?
“It is not easy to attract an ex-world champion to the team when we only won one event during the year,” Millener tells Autosport. “You have got to try hard to persuade him that we know what we are doing and this is the right car, package and team to win. And that takes a lot of time.
“I think there is a lot of trust in Malcolm and in us and what we have done. He [Ott] is experienced enough and sensible enough to know what the car is capable of. I think those were the points that allowed him to make the decision to come to us, but it took a long time.
“Often it takes a lot longer to do something like this than people think. There are a lot of complex issues in terms of contracts and various bits that need to be sorted.
“It was a bit like the deal with Loeb in 2022. You think 'is it actually physically possible to achieve this with someone like Ott?' 'Are we setting our sights too high?' I think those thoughts came and went a number of times.
“There was a concerted effort between a number of sponsors and M-Sport and Malcolm himself. We can’t do it without the support of Ford, and not necessarily in fully funding Ott, but in ensuring that we are going to have development and we are going to have a push towards keeping the car as competitive as possible.
“All of those things combined is what has allowed us to get there. It is a great team effort.”
Full article https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/h...ning/10410948/
“But now we have a driver signed up for a full year who is capable, which gives us a huge opportunity. There are similarities to this year, but it does hark back to 2017 when we signed Ogier and we had an opportunity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
“At the same time, it brings its own challenges. We are going to have to up our game and we need to be the best we can be for Ott to have a chance of doing well next year.”
Yes but unlike 2017 they don't have Tänak to support Tänak or even a Evans for that matter, more like 2018 in that respect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
From MSport/Tanak perspective if you want to take points away from Rovanpera, Evans or Neuville you need Rovanpera, Evans, Neuville, Tanak, Ogier or Loeb. Of course Greensmith or Loubet can be useful if one of the aforementioned has an issue they can slot themselves in front but otherwise it's hard to argue any of them can take points away from those drivers. The best you can do is first maximise Tanak's points and then slot drivers in front of rivals who have problems because the other good ones are taken. So for me the essental question how many rallies does Loeb do for MSport.
Also, Toyota and Hyundai were nowhere near the high level they currently are. And also, Tanak is nowhere near the level of Ogier.
It's not going to happen, sorryQuote:
Originally Posted by seb_sh
This is a different argument. I was just emphasising that Tanak will rightly be demanding and M-Sport will be enthused by him but also will have to deliver on their side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli
Tanak knew the team situation when he signed and wasn't put off by the likely lack of 'supporting' team-mates. He probably thinks the other teams top drivers will mostly do the job in taking points off each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by seb_sh
Agree, the most important thing is to maximize Tanak's points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
What are you lot going on about? Tanak left Hyundai in order to be somewhere as the unquestionable team leader and main focus. Why would he agree to a potential repetition of his experience with Neuville?
This whole "taking off points" thing is a totally weird concept to me. You can't really plan it in advance, just drive as good as you can, and to win the title you have to be faster than the others, also your teammates.
Especially when people talk about taking points off on power stages. How can you estimate that "I'm going to drive faster than my 1st drivers rivals but not as fast as my 1st driver". Of course it's a different issue if your 1st driver has retired, then just try to win the power stage for yourself.
I'd like to think that Tanak is capable of accumulating enough of his own points to win, without needing a wingman to help him out.
Give him a reliable and fast enough car, and he'll be just fine - regardless of who else is using a Puma in 2023.
I agree, 2019 is a perfect example of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by ouvreur
And the latter part of this season, he was the in form driver because he was given a capable car. He is lightning quick and should have more than 1 title (and would if he didn't leave Toyota IMO).Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyest
Let's see if this move brings that second crown. I'd have my doubts but happy to be proved wrong
It was 4 years ago....Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyest
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So you are saying Tänak is slower than in 2019?Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
I doubt it, he has just been stuck in a Hyundai that doesnt suit his driving style completely, and based on his feedback i think the Puma does, and if the car holds up, which i hope it does based on word from Tänaks and m-sport words about ford involvment then regarding raw speed nobody comes close to him and Kalle, not even Ogier since he isnt driving an full season and does not need to go to the maximum.
I think this year we saw 98% maximum driving from Kalle when he was making every top driver look like sissys, but Ott was probably around 85-90 because of the not trusting the car to go 110%(oy exeption is finland where i believe Tänak went 100% and even over the limit to win)
All I'm saying what was 2019 doesn't necessarily hold any grounds today. A lot if things have changed including the car and the team, new rallies etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyest
You can't draw any conclusions from 2019 when 4 years have passed
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I mean, cars and teams wont affect the fact if you are able to finish first or second on every rally, and i mean Tänak is able to fight for victory on every surface in capable machinery, what for example neuville probably isnt able to whatever car you put him in(fast gravel, snow) then you dont need help from team to steal points.Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
Kalle, Ott and even Elfyn are drivers who have proved they can be in fight for top 3 positions every rally if the cars clicks right and dont need as much assist from team. They are drivers who are used to get by themselves without team help or orders.
Okay then, please look and explain Evans's 2021 and 2022 seasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyest
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2021 he was second, better thann Neuville and Kalle and Tänak...Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
2022 he had a hard time adappting to new car, which they are trying to improve. that doesnt change raw speed.
everyone driver could need help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyest
Its not always about speed.There are dnf from crashes,mechanical problems,delay from punctures etc.
Its very easy to be behind in points,while you are fast.
so what about all the fuss on team orders?Quote:
Originally Posted by ouvreur
if you are talking acropolis, that should of have been a no brainer, first season new cars not needing and doing it when its most reasonable are different, was a slim chance yes, but for sake atleast for 1 title for hyudai they shoud have tried, but i guess maybe they already figured Tänak was leaving and wanted to pamper their main man ThierryQuote:
Originally Posted by wyler
So based on 2019 you already presume/know that we will see dominating Tänak in a Puma in 2023? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Rallyest
While I hope it will be so I can't draw any conclusions based from 2019, 2020, 2021 or 2022. Different cars, different teams, different people, different rallies, different rules and very different circumstances concerning his position in the series in a underdog (read: financially weak) team while we have generational talent in a best (well funded) team and car. Can't see how 2019 will be relevant in 2023, just bonkers
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Now you are twisting my words. I have not sayd we will see dominating Tänak in 2023, my point was that 2019 is a example of that a driver like Tänak is capable to fight for the title without teammates who can "steal" points from his championship rivals. Never sayd it will happen in 2023, i hope it will and it is a possibility, but please dont make stuff up.Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
And from a drivers perspective all seasons are relevant. Cars, teams, rallies, people change like you sayd, But talent doesnt.
Even if presume his raw speed hasn't changed you didn't have Rovanperä in a TGR Yaris in 2019. If anybody's going to dominate, it's him and not Ott (hopefully not).Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyest
A lot has changed like I said.
Sorry if you felt that I twisted your words and even if ai didn't completely get your point mine still stands. Domination in 2023 in a Puma is not going to happen whether he's capable or not and a lot has changed.
The question for me is whether it was the Puma or Loeb's brilliance remains to be seen about Ford's performance capabilities. In that sense 2019 is irrelevant.
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https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/fo...bull/10411389/
Rumours of Ford being interested in joining F1.
If he had the sort of team-mates at Hyundai that he will presumably have at M-Sport next year, it wouldn't even have been a discussion, he'd have been ahead of them anyway ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
Motorsport is a combination of driver and machine, so both must work 100% in order to achieve top results. 2019 was an example where that happened for Tänak and Toyota. Of course I can only assume, but I would say that in 2020-2022 it was the machinery that prevented Tänak from proceeding where he left. Not the different car classes, rallies, team circumstances etc. If Puma works for him like Yaris worked in 2019, there's no stopping him, but that one we won't find out until we see how 2023 folds out.
As for team mate support, I would like to see an example of a title won where it wouldn't have happened without a team mate's help.
For example Ogier in 2017:
- Tänak finished several times ahead of Ogier, like in Sweden and Argentina and Australia, but still failed to take points off the biggest rivals Neuville and Latvala
- in Poland Tänak crashed from lead, allowing Ogier's worst rival take big win points (the point interval between Neuville and Ogier became bigger from P1-P3 than it would have been P2-P4).
I get your point, and i agree with you. Nobody expects to be full domination in 2023, first of all it would be boring.. but what we or me myself was talking about was that it is possible to win a championship without the help of teammates, if the car holds up and the driver feel comfortable enough to push for the win in every rally in the calendar. If rovanpera would have been there 2019 is irrelevant. 2019 was an first example that came to mind, that it is possible to win a championship even with the lack of help or point stealing from teammates.Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
Anyway also in my opinion if you are an championship challenger you dont think about if anyone can help to steal points from your competition or anything like that, you go to every rally thinking about only 1 thing and that is how i can win this one. Maybe if you are half a season in and leading you start to think more about strategies
This is just one big guessing. There will be 4 drivers allowed to go 101%, to fight for championship; support cast - Lappi, Katsuta, Breen/Sordo will be asked to deliver stabile Manu points; they will be fighting for 4-7 places, with some sole exceptions or when top 4 guys crash or have problems. They definitely will be helpful to their top guys if capable to stay in front of any of top4.
In Tanaks case - he will be alone, but as he said it to Motorsport - he likes the underdog status. My only concern - how far back fell the development of Puma when due to the extensive crash-fest in 2022 M-Sport were forced to slow down. If the car is reliable and fast, role of the help is less significant in fight for championship.