Fuel issue- No penalty for BMW/Williams- McLaren to appeal

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Originally Posted by passmeatissue

Mike Gascoigne was quoted as saying about the cool fuel issue "it could be 5 or 10 hp easily". Because of the effect on charge temperature.

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They forgot to say that it was only for a lap or so. :rolleyes:

Even if you argue that it might have been possible for Lewis to catch up to a car ahead of him, you couldn't definitely say that he would be able to pass that car.

There are just too many "what ifs" in this whole scenario that just don't offset the more concrete "what ifs" like - What if Lewis has pitted earlier in China? What if Lewis hadn't tried to pass Alonso unnecessarily in the opening laps at Brazil? What if Lewis didn't suffer a mechanical/human error on his car. Those are real issues and not just speculation. I don't see how speculation can be used to overturn the outcome of real, on-track incidents that decided the championship!

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Originally Posted by wmcot

Even if you argue that it might have been possible for Lewis to catch up to a car ahead of him, you couldn't definitely say that he would be able to pass that car.

There are just too many "what ifs" in this whole scenario that just don't offset the more concrete "what ifs" like - What if Lewis has pitted earlier in China? What if Lewis hadn't tried to pass Alonso unnecessarily in the opening laps at Brazil? What if Lewis didn't suffer a mechanical/human error on his car. Those are real issues and not just speculation. I don't see how speculation can be used to overturn the outcome of real, on-track incidents that decided the championship!

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Like some earlier posts I don't think they should be using penalties to try to re-create what would have happened. For me the question of effect is just whether the rule is trivial or significant. If it's a significant rule then it should be enforced consistently, and although there are still some uncertainties what I suspect is that the stewards avoided giving a penalty not because of the facts of the measurements, but because of the effect it would have had on that particular occasion on the particular runners and riders involved. Andrew Davies on planet-f1.com suggested this could be the end of amateur stewards in F1, and I think that would be a good thing.

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Originally Posted by passmeatissue

Like some earlier posts I don't think they should be using penalties to try to re-create what would have happened.

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Very well put. :up:

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Originally Posted by passmeatissue

Andrew Davies on planet-f1.com suggested this could be the end of amateur stewards in F1, and I think that would be a good thing.

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I agree, though complete impartiality and independence would be required — and even then they would still be accused of bias by some.

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Originally Posted by F1boat

Mclaren will appeal
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63570
I wish only the worst to this team and to Hamilton. Whatever bad happens to them, it will be deserved.
I HATE THEM.

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Oh, jolly hockey sticks old bean.....

what what?

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Oh, jolly hockey sticks old bean.....

what what?

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Yes, it's nice to see such temperate, considered language on here, isn't it?

What's the matter SGWilko? You couldn't find anything older to quote?
I bet there are some equally relevant comments from last December in the forum archives...

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Originally Posted by janneppi

What's the matter SGWilko? You couldn't find anything older to quote?
I bet there are some equally relevant comments from last December in the forum archives...

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Did you have something specific in mind?

You hum it sunshine, I'll play it.....

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Oh, jolly hockey sticks old bean.....

what what?

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Many people around here hate Ferrari although they will not publicly acknowledge it as it would make their subsequent arguing nil.

At least f1boat said what he thinks.
What's the problem with that?

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Originally Posted by ioan

Many people around here hate Ferrari although they will not publicly acknowledge it as it would make their subsequent arguing nil.

At least f1boat said what he thinks.
What's the problem with that?

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Surely hatred should be reserved for rather worse things than an F1 team you don't like?

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Originally Posted by passmeatissue

Andrew Davies on planet-f1.com suggested this could be the end of amateur stewards in F1, and I think that would be a good thing.

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I am 100% behind that! The only problem would be finding a group of stewards who understand the entire FIA rulebook. They would probably all end up being attorneys! ;)

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Surely hatred should be reserved for rather worse things than an F1 team you don't like?

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People might hate whatever causes them pain (physical or not).
It's something we all do feel, voluntarily or not.
Why not in relation with F1?

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Originally Posted by ioan

People might hate whatever causes them pain (physical or not).
It's something we all do feel, voluntarily or not.
Why not in relation with F1?

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Because I think hatred goes way over the top when applied to an F1 team.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Many people around here hate Ferrari although they will not publicly acknowledge it as it would make their subsequent arguing nil.

At least f1boat said what he thinks.
What's the problem with that?

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This is something that I just don't understand and is completely beyond my comprehension. I have loved Ferrari from when I was a kid, and have always dreamed of owning a Red Ferrari one day (OK, dream on :( )

But during SchM era with Ferrari, I do admit that my dislike for SchM resulted in my cheering for Williams (When Jacques drover there) then Mika later on.

Having said all that, there are 3 scenarios which McLaren's appeal can end up with:

1. Do nothing, and Kimi is Champion
2. Find both BMW and Williams guilty of a fuel temperature infraction and disqualify both cars from the results and give them a fine, plus grid penalties for the next year, but the drivers do not lose their positions or points.
3. Disqualify both Williams and BMW and move Lewis Hamilton up 3 places, thus giving him the championship.

Like it or not, things can go one of the three ways, and the last one will be the most unpopular with F1 fans, I suspect.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Surely hatred should be reserved for rather worse things than an F1 team you don't like?

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It would probably be a good idea for some of the fans to examine their attitudes. There is a big difference between disliking a person or team and hating them!

I think the terms are sometimes used interchangeably, but they are not the same. I might dislike Ron Dennis, for example, but I don't hate him. Hatred could be construed as wishing him bodily harm or death! That's pretty extreme when we're discussing a sport! F1 isn't life or death despite the way some "fans" act!

I was listening to 5Live's podcast review of the Brazilian GP last night where this fuel/McLaren appeal issue was being discussed by David Croft, Maurice Hamilton and Peter Windsor. Interesting stuff :up:

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Originally Posted by ioan

Many people around here hate Ferrari although they will not publicly acknowledge it as it would make their subsequent arguing nil.

At least f1boat said what he thinks.
What's the problem with that?

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If I read that post correctly, outwardly stating you hate Ferrari means any subsequent post by that person will be worthless, but you then go on to state that he is right for saying what he said, even though he said he hates McLaren/RD?

Surely, by applying your reasoning, his argument is 'nil'?

Or am I missing something?

My 'jolly hockey sticks' post was merely a reference to the spirit in which the particular post was made. No jibe, no chstening, just a general comment......

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

If I read that post correctly, outwardly stating you hate Ferrari means any subsequent post by that person will be worthless, but you then go on to state that he is right for saying what he said, even though he said he hates McLaren/RD?

Surely, by applying your reasoning, his argument is 'nil'?

Or am I missing something?

My 'jolly hockey sticks' post was merely a reference to the spirit in which the particular post was made. No jibe, no chstening, just a general comment......

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Yes that would make his posts about McLaren to be pretty much disregarded because of his feelings towards them. However there are another 10 teams in F1.

In the past there was, and I believe there still is, hatred towards Ferrari expressed around here. But very very few would say it as directly as he did it. I call it hypocrisy, from the part of these people, as their feeling are obvious still they maintain that they have an objective view about F1.

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Originally Posted by wmcot

Hatred could be construed as wishing him bodily harm or death! That's pretty extreme when we're discussing a sport! F1 isn't life or death despite the way some "fans" act!

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I wouldn't go down that road.
Hate is a pretty strong word, but I do not associate it with bodily harm or death. If I hate something (or someone, which is very rare) than I simply wish I don't see it anymore. But certainly don't imagine doing any harm to anything or anyone.

Just my 2c.

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Originally Posted by wmcot

It would probably be a good idea for some of the fans to examine their attitudes. There is a big difference between disliking a person or team and hating them!

I think the terms are sometimes used interchangeably, but they are not the same. I might dislike Ron Dennis, for example, but I don't hate him. Hatred could be construed as wishing him bodily harm or death! That's pretty extreme when we're discussing a sport! F1 isn't life or death despite the way some "fans" act!

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I agree. Such language gets thrown around very loosely nowadays, and not just when discussing F1. Hatred is too strong an emotion to have against an F1 team you don't 'support' (a concept that I also find strange, but never mind).

There are two kinds of forumers

- those who come to exchange ideas and have fun, a bit of wordplay, learn things you didn't know, persuade and be persuaded by reasoning,

- and those who come to fight their unchanging cause through 1,000,000 posts come what may.

It's a trap for some of these to forget that it's sport, not the real world.

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Originally Posted by wmcot

It would probably be a good idea for some of the fans to examine their attitudes. There is a big difference between disliking a person or team and hating them!

I think the terms are sometimes used interchangeably, but they are not the same. I might dislike Ron Dennis, for example, but I don't hate him. Hatred could be construed as wishing him bodily harm or death! That's pretty extreme when we're discussing a sport! F1 isn't life or death despite the way some "fans" act!

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I totally agree but I wonder how many people keep mentioning hate because English isn't their first language and are unaware of the distinction between that and dislike?

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Originally Posted by passmeatissue

There are two kinds of forumers

- those who come to exchange ideas and have fun, a bit of wordplay, learn things you didn't know, persuade and be persuaded by reasoning,

- and those who come to fight their unchanging cause through 1,000,000 posts come what may.

It's a trap for some of these to forget that it's sport, not the real world.

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Never have truer words been spoken/written on here.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

I totally agree but I wonder how many people keep mentioning hate because English isn't their first language and are unaware of the distinction between that and dislike?

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I would say that some of those responsible have made it quite clear that they know what they've been saying. Fair comment though.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

I totally agree but I wonder how many people keep mentioning hate because English isn't their first language and are unaware of the distinction between that and dislike?

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Let's make it clear:

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Originally Posted by wikipedia

Often the verb "to hate" is used casually as an exaggeration to describe things one merely dislikes, such as a particular style of architecture, a certain climate or some particular kind of food.

"Hatred" is also used to describe feelings of prejudice, bigotry or condemnation (see shunning) against a class of people and members of that class.

The passions of hate arise from several features of our thinking process. These include a desire to strengthen our community and to alleviate our fear. The ability to quickly separate friend from foe is essential to self-defense and safety and provides the origins of hate.[1]

However, hatred in modern life is frequently unrelated to survival or self-defense. People are capable of hating others for any particular reason, people with different political and religious views, different lifestyles, and fans of opposing sports teams, to name but a few.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatred

So, as I already pointed it out, "hatred" is not about wishing someone's death or bodily harm.
It's more like a very very deep dislike. And as pointed out in those quotes it is frequent in supporters of different sports.

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Originally Posted by passmeatissue

There are two kinds of forumers

- those who come to exchange ideas and have fun, a bit of wordplay, learn things you didn't know, persuade and be persuaded by reasoning,

- and those who come to fight their unchanging cause through 1,000,000 posts come what may.

It's a trap for some of these to forget that it's sport, not the real world.

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And which type did you get pitched out of
before you graced us with your self-righteous, Anglo, slanted, spiel.

If there is anything worthwhile to be said about the fuel issue that hasn't been said during the 22 pages of this thread you'd better come up with something soon, my finger is already howering on the "close thread" button. ;)

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Originally Posted by passmeatissue

There are two kinds of forumers

- those who come to exchange ideas and have fun, a bit of wordplay, learn things you didn't know, persuade and be persuaded by reasoning,

- and those who come to fight their unchanging cause through 1,000,000 posts come what may.

It's a trap for some of these to forget that it's sport, not the real world.

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And those who start rubbish threads without any other reason than having fun, aren't they also a category? :mad:

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Originally Posted by janneppi

If there is anything worthwhile to be said about the fuel issue that hasn't been said during the 22 pages of this thread you'd better come up with something soon, my finger is already howering on the "close thread" button. ;)

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You may open it again on 15th November. ;)

Will do.