Finally - 400 posts!
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Finally - 400 posts!
I would have to say I agree with all of this and your earlier post.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaimWitz
I've been following this series since '70, and was a big fan of the White Paper when it came out. I loved the '90's and from the early '90's knew they were a special time that could not continue indefinitely.
I find the current version of this series difficult to recognize and have sadly reached the point where I think it would be better for it to die, than continue in its comatose state. I won't won't watch Tony's abomination until the teams should decide to get their acts together and take the sport back, if that should ever happen.
Too bad. The new ownership had such potential, but in the last year, they gave up and it's sad to see what has resulted.
From the article-Quote:
Originally Posted by beachbum
"Champ Car owners committed to series long-term success
by Mark Cipolloni
September 1, 2007
On the heels of the cancellation of both the China and Phoenix races this week and the resulting negative backlash that has caused, Champ Car Series owners Kevin Kalkhoven, Dan Pettit, Paul Gentilozzi, plus series President Steve Johnson and Series VP of Communications David Higdon met with a few media members and I to discuss the state of Champ Car and to ease fears that the sky is falling."
It's all there.
It's business as usual, running the series, they are still busy with racing and getting things done. They don't need to address every rumor.IMO. If that's not good enough,can't help you.
There is nothing that can't be overcome, because the foundation is there.
The foundation is there but they are not building on it Sanguin. You can claim they are by going to Europe, but that is building another house across the Ocean. The one over here, they are giving up on and THAT is the wrong move. The teams are American based, and the series is an American series. It claims to carry on the heritage of the AAA OW series of the first half of the century and the USAC/CART legacy right through 1995 and onwards. Now they are going to dump on this legacy by ignoring the roots, traditions and FANS they have left here and go to Europe?
Champ Car is losing relevency because it doesn't know where its market is and the Amigo's are showing no signs of trying to grow one. Incremental growth and stability would have done wonders but it has been chaos theory management for 3 years plus now. I accepted this a bit in the beginnings, but by now, we should be seeing stablity, and yet the series makes less rational decisions now than they ever did.......
Oh, I thought you meant this was good use. If it's business as usual and they still are running the series, that would mean neither Surfer's or Mexico are going to happen, the 2008 schedule will be out in March (but 1/3 of the races won't take place) and we'll be rosily-scenarioed to death.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
While I agree that not every rumor needs to be addressed, Mexico City is one that needs answering.
That's your opinion, I disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
I think its answered with the Mexican drivers.Quote:
Originally Posted by jjjanos
Sanguin, I knew you would disagree. I would like you to at least try to put up a fight and tell me where I am wrong. You have to understand, I do NOT want CCWS to fail. The reason I am so bitter is because the people in charge don't see what they are doing to their image and brand by running the series like something a bunch of high school students could manage. I invested my fan's heart in this successor to CART and it makes me angry to see it so cavalierly mismanaged. We lost 2 races this year because of bad promotors and not understanding the FIA's role in determining as schedule. That just screams mickey mouse...and I was sold on a professional series that KK was promising he first took over.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
Nothing is more galling than having a businessman in professional sport lie to the fans that keep him afloat.....and I feel lied to. So when you say you wont agree with me, I expect that, but then again, you have been such a carrier of water for the Amigo's, I would think you would at least have some sort of rebuttal that might have merit.
I did a little research and the following things (in no particular order) seem to be what all major league sports must have to succeed today:
1) A powerful brand
2) Cultural resonance and relevance
3) Well known stars
5) 3-6 Elite teams
6) A defining national or global event
8) Schedule stability
9) Business credibility
10) Format continuity
11) A target audience
12) Sponsors who activate
13) Media partners who invest
14) A long-term marketing and business strategy
15) Committed capital investors
16) The ability to create leveragable value for all stakeholders
17) A meaningful heritage
Ask yourself how many of these things Champ Car has today and what it is missing from the above list.
Then do the same for the Indy Car Series.
Ditto for ALMS. Grand-Am. NASCAR. NHRA. F1.
IMO, things are so dire for Champ Car that what happens next should solve the problem of what is missing from the above list in the most expedient and efficient way possible.
And I would say not since there the question is whether the track itself intends to hold the event. Hiring the Mexican drivers simply indicates that the series is willing to take actions to satisfy it's portion of the sanction agreement and thus would not be required to return the full sanction fee.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
Sort of like how they said they could keep TMS' money, and California's money and China's money.
They sure did. They made it clear that they were short on ideas, short on cash, missread nearly everything in motor racing terms, and KK saying the Europeans love the US way of doing things is true in that the drivers are more visible but the US car drive by and the Harleys were an embarrasment to all those that attended. It was a joke and I could have organised better cars and more with a few calls. KK alosso needs to know that there is big resentment to the US way in Europe care of Iraq and that is not a help. I spent dinner with a marketing guy from the US last Sunday, marketing IT kit and a ChampCar sponsor and he was shocked at the recoil he found from Europeans as soon as they knew he was an American. KK is way out of touch with the realities of the market place. He understand telecoms, has a big ego and is getting this one so wrong. Paulie G -String and he think Europe will be their saviour... I wondered what they thought their strategy was prior to Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
Link please, we are not privy to the contract for the race. Another rumor from where?Quote:
Originally Posted by jjjanos
so this is pure speculation. I don't think CC owners should answer this kind of rumor since it has nothing to do with fact.
In the name of Sanguin, what has happened to Mark Cippolini today? His Champ Car 2007 Report Card commentary on the Autoracing1 homepage reads as if it could have been taken straight from this monster thread. Is there a connection? It now appears Mark C. has become surprisingly rational and now sees Champ Car's glass 2/3rds empty like many of us here. Truth has a funny way of outlasting fiction.
I also want to correct what I posted yesterday regarding the things that all major league sports need and have to be successful. I accidentally posted it before I was finished cutting and pasting from sources I had found elsewhere: Here is the complete list:
1) A powerful brand
2) Cultural resonance and relevance
3) Well known stars
4) 3-6 Elite teams
5) A defining national or global event
6) Schedule stability
7) Business credibility
8) Format continuity
9) A target audience
10) Sponsors who activate
11) Media partners who invest
12) A long-term marketing and business strategy
13) Committed capital investors
14) The ability to create leveragable value for all stakeholders
15) A meaningful heritage
16) Defining rivalries
17) A grassroots system to develop participants
Ask yourself how many of these things Champ Car has today and what it is missing from the above list.
Then do the same for the Indy Car Series.
Ditto for ALMS. Grand-Am. NASCAR. NHRA. F1.
IMO, things are so dire for Champ Car that what happens next should solve the problem of what is missing from the above list in the most expedient and efficient way possible.
My point is this: If Champ Car were a real business, the problems above would be approached in a logical and strategic manner. Instead, it appears to be a broken hobby toy or a misplayed opportunistic ploy run entirely by ego and reactive tank slapper changes in a flawed plan born of hubris.
For many here, that perspective is still hard to see or accept since, for them, “The Split” is still a hate-fueled Holy War against King George and the heathens. But, again, as someone else pointed out in this thread, the moral imperative that justified this Holy War mentality was once CART's and for a time, it was Champ Car's battle flag but that has now been lost with the ongoing dilution of the sports identity in pursuit of sanction fees to stay alive. The majority of CART's defining teams, drivers, tracks, and sponsors as well as its venue diversity and heritage have now been lost in the past five years. As others have asked in this thread: What exactly are we still fighting for?
Another person commented that Champ Car doesn't stand for anything any more. I disagree. It now stands for delusional thinking, chronic failure and deceptive leadership. This is so sad given what Champ Car and CART once represented. Think back to just ten short years ago… it would have been very hard to imagine what this has all devolved to today.
Despite Sanguin’s (nearly 300) “all is well” posts on these boards since this thread began on August 30, I now believe that most rational people who visit here now understand that time is just about up for Champ Car. I also think most of us now see that it is finally now time to take what is left of Champ Car and the bulk of what is in the Indy Car Series and make the best of it in 2008 and beyond rather than waiting for Champ Car’s inevitable collapse. History teaches us that any other "plan" is sheer folly.
Perhaps Mark Cippolini's surprising choice to join us on the last train to sanity might serve as a last call to the owners of OWRS who could still yet find success in that special place called Reality.
I love this sport but I am sick and tired of sanctioning body and ownership politics ruining my interest in it and polluting the atmosphere for business. I no longer care who started it or why. I just care about someone having the balls to end this Split. So, I am very sad to say it, but Champ Car has had its shot and it is now officially a dismal DNQ. Merge, purge or put it on the trailer and go home.
If there are no contractual obligations to have a minimum of 2 Mexican drivers, then please justify YOUR ASSERTION that the placement of 2 Mexican drivers in rides provides any information or indication that the Mexico City race will take place.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
Which is it - the Mexicans are an indication that CCWS is willing to honor the contract or the Mexicans are not an indication that CCWS is willing to honor the contract?
In either event, it does nothing to refute the RUMORS that the Mexican promoter may bail this year.
It is FACT that there is no information available regarding the Mexico City race and it is impossible to purchase tickets for said race, there is a RUMOR that this race is in trouble.
Given the FACT that CCWS has cancelled multiple races this season and these cancellations were RUMORED weeks to months in advance of the cancellation, one would ASSUME that the series would attempt to dispel concerns regarding the Mexico City event.
It has been RUMORED by journalists and the replaced drivers that the hiring was done to satisfy CCWS' contractual obligations. While one could LINK to these assertions, they are not, in fact, PROOF of these contractual obligations.
I called the Champ Car office in Indy today (and spoke to a live body too!! :D ), to ask when they anticipated release of the 2008 schedule. They are projecting December. :eek:
Kinda late in the game to line up prospective sponsors if you ask me IMO.
Add to the news from CCWS that CDW is gone from Champcar as reported by AR1 green confirm in the rumor page!!! RuSport also rumored to be gone...what do you have to say today Sanguin?Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanMockery
Quote:
Originally Posted by seppefan
I glad to see someone else here finally has the nerve to say what I've been saying about International expansion and the US image on the world stage lately. Sorry, KK is still blinded by ownership. China? c'mon has anyone seen the Sino/Russian sabre rattling aimed at the US lately? How about all the product scandals lately. There's more than a little specualtion that much of the tainted products coming out of China is less than a coincidence. Paranoia, maybe, but I still lsee little evidence of any kind of chinese advertising for ANYTHING but the local carryout. They produce goods, we buy them marketed by Domestic companies.
Sure people may like American things, but they arent' exactly fond of America or Americans right now. Unpopular wars do that. I find past rumors of expansion to Greece comical if they are going to push the American angle. My cousin is married to a Greek woman and he has to all but put it on mute when visiting family in Greece he gets harassed so much and he is NOT easy to pick out of a crowd as an American by any means.
Sponsorships have been secured on tentative schedules for decades. What's important are what events are likely to stay and the probability of new ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanMockery
IMO, the firing of drivers Ryan Dalziel and Oriol Servia from PCM and Forsythe (obviously fact, not speculation) was indictative of the chaotic nature of Champ Car this year. A last minute knee-jerk decision to secure short term viability without a long term plan. That's my opinion, but it seems consistent with many things that have in CCWS this year.
Why fire these two drivers just to get Mexican drivers for the last two races (particularly Mexico)? Just to fufill a contract? Dalziel, acording to Robin Miller at SPEEDTV.com, had turned in some very good performances for PCM this year, and this is even more ridiculous with Servia, who has outdriven Paul Tracy throughout most of the year, in a ride that Forsythe said he wasn't even going to have on the track this year.
It seems to me that PCM and Forsythe could have built additional cars for these two drivers, that would have avoided alienating fans of Dalziel and Servia, who were starting to build a small following. Not only, that, it would have increased the car count to at least 19, which is a good thing for the race. Now, I'm the first one to say how easy it is to spend someone else's money to build a car, especially given the tight budgets the teams have.
But...
If Our Good Friend Tony George can finance a large portion of the field to make the magic number of 33 at Indy, The Amigos can get together and spend a few bucks to build two cars to accommodate David Martinez and Mario Dominguez. Give the devil his due, once George either realized the stupidity of his "33 is just a number" remark, or swallowed his pride after hearing the reaction to it, he made damn sure these last few years, where it clearly was touch and go, to have 33 cars start the Indy 500. This is the difference right now between the IRL and Champ Car: the IRL stays on course, in spite of it's CART wanna-be approach, while CC tries to chase the wind. Don't get me wrong, I want as much as anything for CC to right the ship, but it's taking on water, and the Amigos are slow to see it.
Do CC owners think that the Mexican fans are that stupid to not know that Dominguez and Martinez are being use up just because of Mexico event? I'm still waiting for one of the teams to add Lavin on that line-up.
Maybe we got into trouble when we had 670 700 720 725 750 775 and 800 HP power levels in the same season depending on track and altitude. You need a program to know what you are watching power - wise.
rh
That too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoop-98
Regardless of how the OWRS owners are spinning it, Mexico is in deep trouble as a Champ Car event. The same old problems have reared their ugly heads: Lack of fan and commercial support (see the translated item on the Autoracing1 home page). There is simply is no real economy behind the series to make it work for promoters, teams and drivers.
Recently, heelntoe stated on this thread that Next Marketing had resigned the Champ Car sales account mere months after enthusiastically taking on the assignment. I can now add that I have had independent confirmation that this is true. The reasons why they chose to quit were told to me in confidence but I can share that most here would not be surprised at all. I will also be shocked if CDW continues with Champ Car given what I now know.
I can't help but get the feeling that the ownership of OWRS is doing their deceptive best to keep appearances up by never confirming negative events until their hand is forced. Why is anyone's guess? My hunch is that it is that old sucker game of trying to convince current and potential promoters and teams that things are not as bad as they really are.
When the 9-13 race 2008 schedule is finally announced we will all know the hard truth so what is all this posturing really about?
Well, things really are as bad as they appear. Actually, they are far worse given the apparent deceptive nature of some of the men who own Champ Car. It seems that lying and hiding the truth is viewed as the only hope.
It does not have to be this way. Honesty and sincerity go a long way in business and in life. Establishing realistic expectations is part of saving or growing a business. Doing the opposite is part of killing one.
The PR Spin machine is starting to ignite in Mexico for the race... SJ satated in an interview, that he will surprise us with a schedule in two weeks... He did not commit on weather CCWS is going to be back in Aztec soil next year (hmmm GF pissed off?), but he did state a commitment with the country.. what ever that means (probably a change in venue --again GF?--)...
SJ stated that MD and Martinez are key factors for the promotion of the race in Autodromo. Also he said that even though the title may be defined in Australia, drivers will be very focused on second and third...
This all acording to Reforma, one of the leading newspapers in Mexico...
I don't have any insider info, I don't claim to know anyone in the series, but from a casual fan's perspective I think that losing CDW and (possibly) having Mexico fall by the wayside would spell the end of my interest in the series, if not the end of the series itself. The owners and the yes-men of CCWS can say all they want to about a plan and a vision, but the momentum for this series definitely seems largely negative and that will not inspire confidence in potential sponsors and current teams.
Their idea of going to Europe is flawed as there are no particular reasons as the why CCWS will stand out in a crowd of several sub-F1 level racing series. Unless they bring in lots of European drivers and have the majority of their season in Europe, in which case their already limited North American sponsor base will be alienated and no doubt look to a more US-centered series. They may pick up European sponsors, but it will take several years of spending from CCWS to establish a solid set of races here. Time, and money, it would seem, that they do not have. Rockingham and Eurospeedway could have succeeded back in 2002 and onwards, but the management at the time chose to move away from ovals.
As I said above I don't know anything about the inner working of the series, I can only go on what I read in the press, and as far as I can see our horizontally challeneged female is grabbing the mic and getting ready to warble a tune.....
Champ Car finally has a link to a web site for Mexico
http://www.granpremiotecate.com/
Of course it is in Spanish and my Spanish is too rusty to get anything from it. But the web site exists.
No, they are not, and no one should expect them to be. They will see through this sham as the American and Canadian fans do; if the crowd isn't that big, you will know why.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cart750hp
....but they are....Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaparral66
[quote="Chaparral66'355504"]They will see through this sham as the American and Canadian fans do]
How can you count on the a big crowd when they just announced two weeks ago that they are cutting more grandstands? Plus, the on-call drivers are up.
I think we're saying the same thing, here. Would they be cutting grand stands if they expected a big crowd? Why cut out stands and ***** customers if they expected a lot to show up?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cart750hp
I was talking about how the owners are out of their minds if they think the Mexicans are that stupid to not know that they are being mislead. I won't be surprised to find out CC giving freebies this time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaparral66
Yes we are talking the same tune, Chaparral.Quote:
Originally Posted by chaprral66
Why did "they" (as in owners) tell people that there would be a huge announcement in Laguna Seca when there was nothing to announce and not a word from the management that day? (well, not until KK spoke about swimming with penguins)
Why did they put China on schedule when it wasn't even finalized?
Why say there will be at least 20 cars when you are not sure if there will be?
....this is not a new thing from CC management/owners. SJ's statement for Mexico said there'll be 200K. What the heck is wrong with this management? Obviously, these guys like to make a fool of themselves a lot while their fanatics see this as a good thing. I have a feeling that Steve Johnson is making money through comission by the number of people he can mislead. I think it's possible. I believe he said that the schedule for 08 will be out within two weeks and it's a world class schedule. Anyone still believe this fool?
It would be hard to. You'd think this guy has heard of the cliche, "Don't count your chickens before they're hatched". Never brag about the crowd until they show, and hopefully in the numbers you're aiming for. Never put a date in a schedule you haven't got an ironclad contract for. This stuff is so basic, it's insulting to have to rant about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cart750hp
I used to produce and direct a TV show covering short track racing here in New England. I also sold the advertising for it. I worked my butt off from sunrise to sunset, but I finally got some clients and had the biggest revenue of any show on our small system. But I NEVER talked to anyone about clients I had backing our show until I had them signed on. That would have been PR and financial suicide if I did. 'Course, we're not talking the numbers that The Amigos are used to dealing with; but just like politics, all business is local, and you don't brag about a client you don't have signed. He'll pull out of any discussion in a NYC minute if he feels you are saying something you shouldn't, just to show you don't control the strings. I also learned pretty quickly that all sponsors and partners are high-maintenence relationships, and you have to keep cultivating them if you want them to stay. This attitude should have applied to Ford, and I would say this applies to venues that Champ Car races at currently, venues they are pursuing, and even places they are returning to after being away for a while, like Mazda Raceway at Laguna Seca and fairly recently, Road America. Real basic, common sense stuff, people. Don't need to be a brain surgeon to follow those simple guidelines.
Personally, I don't believe a word that comes out of Johnson's mouth. And it's not because I believe he is a dishonest guy. I don't believe him because he's not in the communication loop any longer. All he knows is what the owners pay him to hear, and his job now is to believe what they tell him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaparral66
And when this all winds down, he'll be the only one left to take the fall. JMO.
The latest Johnson quotes in a Mexican sports paper about that race tell that story.
Just when Champ Car doesn't need another shoe to fall, David Malsher has an interesting article in Autosport about Champ Cars unluckiest driver. He covered the Dalziel and Servia situation, but brought up a new rumor, that Tagliani and Rocketsports won't make the bell for the last 2 races. Apparently the rumor was very strong at the Sebring test.
http://www.autosport.com/journal/article.php/id/1272
IMO, a high degree of liklihood on this one. If , as has been said, that PG's team merger and other behavior had anything to do with CDW leaving RuSport, his relationship with Petit would be strained at best...at this juncture, KK would lean towards his old pal from the JDSU club over PG, and PG knows it. If, as some believe, the series will have its plug pulled between Surfer's and MC. then PG is doing his typical pre-emptive disappearing act and won't be returning calls.Quote:
Originally Posted by beachbum
Quote:
Originally Posted by heelntoe
Petit is part owner of CC,and no one is pulling any plug.
IMO
Dude, I was there when Petit joined as an owner, so be real careful where you tread concerning statements about the ownership structure of CCWS...and as to the plug getting pulled, as I stated, as "some" have said! Frankly, I also believe it will be pulled, but not until after the season...but time will tell, won't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
That's your opinion. I'm saving all these predictions see how many come true, it doesn't look good.Quote:
Originally Posted by heelntoe
Good to see you know about ownership then. It makes the scenario far fetched.
Anyone can say anything, I know so much depends on CC's demise for another series, and its the motivation for the rumors, but there just isn't any fact to point to any credibility other than CC will continue.IMO
You mean like my prediction that Phoenix wouldn't happen? Your posts have shown so little basis of fact that taking the position you do erodes posting credibility daily. As far as the ownership structure, why exactly would it make that scenario unlikely? PG is a minority stakeholder at this juncture and there's no major requirements of that ownership structure to be at any race, run any cars or do anything other than the capital calls that are built into the ownership, which, I might add, is why he is a minority shareholder. Your constant reference to the demise of CCWS for the benefit of the IRL bares no relation to my interests as I've never even been to an IRL race (as most already know).Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
And I do hope you hold on to all the predictions as many of us will be calling them out as well when the dust settles. My guess/opinion is that we will all remain here and either eat crow or say "I told you so"...you, however, will likely be absent from that exchange as fast as you arrived...again, IMO.
sanguin, NOTHING depends on the demise of CCWS. Except for CCWS.
Just like in the last days of CART, the demise of CCWS will be their own undoing as a result of poor managment (the failure of three scheduled races during the year and the loss of two naming sponsors while the primary owner vacationed in Antartica), lack of a direction (the blind hope that the DP-01 would lead to significantly larger fields, which it did not) and an almost complete lack of significant sponsorship on both the team and venue level (conspicuously blank side pods, loss of race sponsorships throught the season and the breakdown of team sponsors, like Lexington Energy and now CDW, it appears, as the season progressed.)
These aren't my opinions. These are well documented and reported upon facts (so don't ask for links; you know these to be facts as well as anyone else and you know how to use Google, too).
Nothing points to the series continuing except blind hope. Nor will it until a 2008 schedule is released, and, in that regard, again mismanagement rears its ugly head once more. Even the series can't get that straight. Johnson is quoted in a Mexican newspaper this week as saying the schedule will be released in about two weeks (link to that report available on this forum), yet if you call the CCWS office in Indy (I have; have you?) you are told the 2008 schedule will be released "around Christmas." Sorry, no link on that, but I know of no way to link a phone conversation. I can just encourage you to call yourself and ask.
I am one who does indeed believe (my personal opinion) that the series ownership is going to pull the plug right after Surfers. To me, all the signs point to that. I don't believe Mexico will happen, nor will I until, at minimum, you can show me an official link where I can buy a ticket.
I also believe (again, my personal opinion) that, if that indeed does happen, the poster we know as sanguin will abruptly disappear forever. He won't show up here again to admit that his opinions were wrong.