Ferrari/McLaren Espionage Story [merged]

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Originally Posted by Gannex

That's not what the FIA said, ioan. What they said was that the drawings were such as could be used to design, test, run, etc. a Ferrari. They were just defining the drawings, that's all, explaining that they were technical design drawings, not artist's impressions, or photographs, or anything else. There is no suggestion at all that these drawings were sufficient, on their own, for any purpose at all, never mind building an entire F1 car.

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For aero testing you don't need the entire car.

Certainly with all that info, you can at least figure out your opponents vulnerabilities. So putting in something completely original, but to make the opponents car undrivable when following you.

Or to see the opponents testing strategy. So, in a given test they were .5 secs slower each day, but turns out they ran a bunch of fuel the entire test so as to sandbag. Next time they do that, you might be able to figure it out, based on the info contained in the docs.

Many more such examples could come to mind. The least of which is copying something directly from one car to the other. Thus RD's droning that the Mac contains no Ferrari items... duh... but that's not the most important place they could get an advantage.

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Originally Posted by tinchote

That would amount to accept what a majority of people in these forums consider unacceptable: many here claim that Benetton got away of the software affair in 94 by claiming that "the cheating software was there but we didn't use it", and consider that wrong. This would be exactly the same: "we had the stolen blueprints, but we didn't use them". I'm interested to see how many people here think that Benetton was ok in 94; only those should claim that McLaren should not be punished.

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Was the software already installed into the blackbox? In that case even if they didn't use it, it was in the car and therefore the case is different. Also, that the FIA turned a blind eye to Benneton in '94 may not mean they will turn a blindeye to this now. The fact is, the software wasn't stolen from another team. This design has been stolen from Ferrari and if it is in Coughlans possession, it may simply mean that Steptoe and son intended to use the plans at another team, hopefully Honda (as we have suspected).

In this manner, the two cases are quite different.

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Originally Posted by ioan

So why did Coughlan need the Ferrari plans?!

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Well, why did he go with Stepney to meet with Honda's chief? If you can add 2 + 2, it often comes out nearly close enough to 3.98.

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Originally Posted by ioan

What strikes me most is that people here really believe that Coughlan did have access to the whole Ferrari data but he didn't use it for his work on the McLaren!
To put it clear, Stepney trying to use Ferrari plans to try to get a position at Honda it's pretty much logical. But Coughlan using the same Ferrari plans for the same reason doesn't make sense. I mean for sure that Honda, or any other team, would have valued more the McLaren plans from Coughlan as Stepney had the Ferrari ones at hand already. It simply doesn't make sense!
So why did Coughlan need the Ferrari plans?!

The FIA say that the plans that Coughlan had were enough to allow them to recreate the 2007 Ferrari. Let's suppose that McLaren didn't use those to copy ideas from it but rather to reproduce the Ferrari racer and use it in the wind tunnel together with their car to improve the McLaren's aerodynamics when running behind or in front of the Ferrari! This is a huge advantage gained in an illegal way too, without using Ferrari designs in their own cars.

It seems that there are many ways, other than directly copying the Ferrari designs, to use those stolen documents.

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I think my Elvis theory is far more plausible than your, ioan. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by jens

I haven't said a word in this thread yet, partly because all the story looks still quite unclear and it's hard to say where exactly the truth is (only the guys involved in this, know exactly that).

But whatever the case is and whatever the penalties will be, I'd say one thing - FIA, please don't touch drivers' points!!! Why should they be punished?!?!

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While the drivers are no doubt innocent (unless something dramatic turns up) they earned their points driving the car made by the TEAM. Unfortunately, if one team member cheats, the entire team cheats. Ron Dennis may rightly claim that his integrity has not been hurt, but, at the end of the day, he is ultimately responsible for everything that goes on within his TEAM. He's the captain of a torpedoed (allegedly) ship and must take the responsibility and go down with the ship along with all the crew aboard.

In team sports, it is difficult to just pick out you and you and you and punish a few members while saying that any benefit from their actions can still go rewarded for other team members. I know the FIA has done this in the past, but I'm not sure it was the right thing to do then, either.

I'm also concerned that now Coughlan has admitted to showing the documents to more people within McLaren even if they did "distance themselves" from the documents. How do you "distance yourself" from a key designer within your own team? Perhaps the only way this should have been handled is by McLaren immediately sacking and reporting Coughlan to the authorities and Ferrari when the first McLaren employee knew he had them. That could have saved face at McLaren, but it now appears that these documents were floating around somewhere at McLaren (even if they were in Coughlan's possession) for 2 to 3 months. I find it hard to believe that Coughlan just sat them on his shelf and nobody took any interest in them for 3 months despite knowing he had them.

In any other business, Coughlan would be fired and on trial and the CEO would have resigned. The business would also be facing huge punitive fines and/or lawsuits. Just because F1 is a sport does not mean it is not also big business.

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Originally Posted by GP-M3

Certainly with all that info, you can at least figure out your opponents vulnerabilities. . . Or to see the opponents testing strategy. Many more such examples could come to mind. The least of which is copying something directly from one car to the other.

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I agree with you, GP-M3, that there are any number of ways it could be competitively useful to McLaren to have a fresh copy of Ferrari's 2007 operation or design manuals sitting on their shelves at Woking. The documents would, if studied, surely yield an unfair advantage; that has to be assumed.

So I have to say that wmcot has, to my mind, identified the real issue: it all comes down to the timing. Did McLaren give themselves time to read and inwardly digest the documents before reporting them stolen? Just how long did McLaren top brass dither? If it's a short period, they're ok, and if it's not, they might still be alright, but their explanations for the delays will have to be good. I'm hoping, because this will bring the whole thing to a screeching halt if it's true, that Ron Dennis learned of the theft and reported it forthwith, quickly, without undue delay. From what I've heard about Ron Dennis, he will probably have done just that.

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Originally Posted by wmcot

While the drivers are no doubt innocent (unless something dramatic turns up) they earned their points driving the car made by the TEAM. Unfortunately, if one team member cheats, the entire team cheats. Ron Dennis may rightly claim that his integrity has not been hurt, but, at the end of the day, he is ultimately responsible for everything that goes on within his TEAM. He's the captain of a torpedoed (allegedly) ship and must take the responsibility and go down with the ship along with all the crew aboard.

In team sports, it is difficult to just pick out you and you and you and punish a few members while saying that any benefit from their actions can still go rewarded for other team members. I know the FIA has done this in the past, but I'm not sure it was the right thing to do then, either.

I'm also concerned that now Coughlan has admitted to showing the documents to more people within McLaren even if they did "distance themselves" from the documents. How do you "distance yourself" from a key designer within your own team? Perhaps the only way this should have been handled is by McLaren immediately sacking and reporting Coughlan to the authorities and Ferrari when the first McLaren employee knew he had them. That could have saved face at McLaren, but it now appears that these documents were floating around somewhere at McLaren (even if they were in Coughlan's possession) for 2 to 3 months. I find it hard to believe that Coughlan just sat them on his shelf and nobody took any interest in them for 3 months despite knowing he had them.

In any other business, Coughlan would be fired and on trial and the CEO would have resigned. The business would also be facing huge punitive fines and/or lawsuits. Just because F1 is a sport does not mean it is not also big business.

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There is one hole in your plot : if McLaren were to have used the plans, then sure as hell Trudy wouldn't have gone tyo have them copied at the local - they would have copied them at McLaren, wouldn't they?

We can if and surmise all we want, but all the suggestions/hypotheses so far are no more plausible than my Elvis theory.

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Originally Posted by Gannex

I agree with you, GP-M3, that there are any number of ways it could be competitively useful to McLaren to have a fresh copy of Ferrari's 2007 operation or design manuals sitting on their shelves at Woking. The documents would, if studied, surely yield an unfair advantage; that has to be assumed.

So I have to say that wmcot has, to my mind, identified the real issue: it all comes down to the timing. Did McLaren give themselves time to read and inwardly digest the documents before reporting them stolen? Just how long did McLaren top brass dither? If it's a short period, they're ok, and if it's not, they might still be alright, but their explanations for the delays will have to be good. I'm hoping, because this will bring the whole thing to a screeching halt if it's true, that Ron Dennis learned of the theft and reported it forthwith, quickly, without undue delay. From what I've heard about Ron Dennis, he will probably have done just that.

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Well, we know Flav sure as hell wouldn't have. :D

One for Elvis:

Ferrari knows that Brawn, still upset about the way Michael was pushed into retirement, has met with Ferrari and made it clear he ain't coming back.

Ferrari wants/needs a new technical director and would like to have Coughlan.

Coughlan needs to be unemployed with no strings early enough to start working on the 2008 Ferrari.

Coughlan is "set up for a fall" with Ferrari documents.

Coughlan is fired by McLaren and immediately put under contract to Ferrari.

Ferrari withdrawls all legal complaints.

Nigel comes back home to Ferrari, and the job of his choice, secure in the knowledge of where another body is buried and pleased with having played his part to the hilt.

You've got me there buddy-boy!! and Elvis is the agent behind all this!!

It's hillarious to hear Martin "the Bigot" Brundle go on about how this should be settled on the race track instead of in the courts. LOL. I guess Mclaren should have thought about that before poisoning the well-- before battle, eh?

It's looking to me like Mclaren is in deep. Before the start of the season they were asking specific questions about rules clarifications, these questions were related to certain pointed at what might have been specific parts of the ferrari and its design.

Spells baaaaaad. I can't say Mclaren and the general British fan base does not deserve it, however. Karma is a bitch.

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Originally Posted by Hendersen

It's hillarious to hear Martin "the Bigot" Brundle go on about how this should be settled on the race track instead of in the courts. LOL. I guess Mclaren should have thought about that before poisoning the well-- before battle, eh?

It's looking to me like Mclaren is in deep. Before the start of the season they were asking specific questions about rules clarifications, these questions were related to certain pointed at what might have been specific parts of the ferrari and its design.

Spells baaaaaad. I can't say Mclaren and the general British fan base does not deserve it, however. Karma is a bitch.

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:dozey:

I think you lost any credibility you had in the first sentence, and then it went downhill from there :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Ian McC

:dozey:

I think you lost any credibility you had in the first sentence, and then it went downhill from there :rolleyes:

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Wah, wah. Try some Pamprin for the bloat.

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Originally Posted by Hendersen

Wah, wah. Try some Pamprin for the bloat.

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:rolleyes:

Thanks for confirming what I already thought

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Originally Posted by Ian McC

:rolleyes:

Thanks for confirming what I already thought

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Seems you think starting all your posts with emoticons makes you look more intelligent. You couldn't be more wrong, a trend that seems to haunt you in your post history. Why don't you jiust stick to the topic instead of trying to derail the thread because you don't like the issues at hand: Mclaren looking like a bunch of dirty cheats.

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Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7

One for Elvis:

Ferrari knows that Brawn, still upset about the way Michael was pushed into retirement, has met with Ferrari and made it clear he ain't coming back.

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Fiero, usually I agree with you, but not on this one because Michael was not pushed into retirement, and Brawn knows it better than anyone; so he can't be upset about something that didn't happen, since he is English. Englishmen don't worry about things that didn't happen. We leave that to other genders and nationalities.

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Originally Posted by Hendersen

Why don't you jiust stick to the topic instead of trying to derail the thread because you don't like the issues at hand: Mclaren looking like a bunch of dirty cheats.

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Have to agree with this.

This coming from a SchM fan :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Hendersen

Seems you think starting all your posts with emoticons makes you look more intelligent. You couldn't be more wrong, a trend that seems to haunt you in your post history. Why don't you jiust stick to the topic instead of trying to derail the thread because you don't like the issues at hand: Mclaren looking like a bunch of dirty cheats.

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Well you seem to make a habit of insulting anyone that you can so your posts don't surprise me.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

This coming from a SchM fan :rolleyes:

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Valve, you have to remember that MS and Ferrari are always seen as the "Cheaters" in F1. Its about time that people realise that EVERY TEAM cheats. Each has their own way of doing it or "bending the rules" as people love to put it.

Everyone cheats in F1, fact of life. Hell, Senna was one of the biggest cheaters of them all and he is a Saint as far as people are concerned.

This current affair opens up the dirty world of F1 that lies behind closed doors.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

Hell, Senna was one of the biggest cheaters of them all and he is a Saint as far as people are concerned.

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That's the biggest load of crap ever, no-one thinks Senna was a saint.

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Originally Posted by janneppi

That's the biggest load of crap ever, no-one thinks Senna was a saint.

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Hell no, I was always lead to believe he was a Brazillian!! :D

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

Its about time that people realise that EVERY TEAM cheats.

Everyone cheats in F1.

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Link, please :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Hendersen

...the issues at hand: Mclaren looking like a bunch of dirty cheats.

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I assume you have the evidence that McLaren, as a team, used the infamous document.

Then there's the question of who sent the document from Ferrari, and why?

Instead of calling McLaren "cheats" couldn't you equally say Ferrari have played a very clever game to deliberately implicate McLaren? Nigel Stepney's lawyer has said "The evidence in our possession shows there will be other people involved. Some heavy revelations" (link).

Either theory has a similar level of credibility until we know more.

Ah the background noise of f1 eh?

Its times like this when you realise that its hardly a sport. I hope this situation doesn't snowball, it would probably leave a sour taste in fans mouths.

Its business and politics. If people don't know what your doing, then your not doing anything wrong!

In this case, someone found out. I think the case needs to move back out of the public eye.

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Originally Posted by janneppi

That's the biggest load of crap ever,

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That explains why I was on the toilet for so long :p :

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Originally Posted by andreag

Link, please :rolleyes:

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I suppose you think the world is a rosy and fair place then with no scheming, cheating, backstabbing etc etc :?:

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Instead of calling McLaren "cheats" couldn't you equally say Ferrari have played a very clever game to deliberately implicate McLaren?

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Trying to claim that Ferrari have stitched them up, based solely on Nigel Stepney's lawyers comments (well, he would say that, wouldn't he?), is not equal to Mclaren having to go to Paris next week to explain why documents relating to the F2007 were in the possession of their chief designer.

One is fact, the other speculation.......speculation most likely brought about by a case of self-denial and an unwillingness to accept that those who make a song and dance about appearing to be whiter than white might just be as grimey as the rest of us.

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Originally Posted by padster

Ah the background noise of f1 eh?

Its times like this when you realise that its hardly a sport. I hope this situation doesn't snowball, it would probably leave a sour taste in fans mouths.

Its business and politics. If people don't know what your doing, then your not doing anything wrong!

In this case, someone found out. I think the case needs to move back out of the public eye.

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Indeed. There is a famous saying, "Nothing is illegal until you get caught."

[quote="ArrowsFA1"]Why? Stepney has already said that "three or four people at Ferrari indicated to me, after reading stories of my approach to Honda, that they would be interested in joining a technical group to go to another team...Mike and I agreed to pool our expertise and talked about what we could bring to a team."

Pooling expertise could include sharing information on how things were done in their respective (current) teams, and then discussing how that could be used to help another team (apparently Honda).

However, this does all assume that Stepney sent Coughlan the infamous document, and it is not yet confirmed that he did.
QUOTE]

Well, if it is true, I wonder if there might be 780 pages of McLaren documents somewhere in Stepneys home as well.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

I suppose you think the world is a rosy and fair place then with no scheming, cheating, backstabbing etc etc :?:

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So we're not in Kansas anymore?

Didn't you realize the emoticon at the end of my phrase asking for a link?

I realize of yours at the end of your phrase about being in the toilet for so long, and then I didn't took it literally.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Trying to claim that Ferrari have stitched them up, based solely on Nigel Stepney's lawyers comments (well, he would say that, wouldn't he?), is not equal to Mclaren having to go to Paris next week to explain why documents relating to the F2007 were in the possession of their chief designer.

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Looks like the lawyer is trying a bit of muck spreading

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

I assume you have the evidence that McLaren, as a team, used the infamous document.

Then there's the question of who sent the document from Ferrari, and why?

Instead of calling McLaren "cheats" couldn't you equally say Ferrari have played a very clever game to deliberately implicate McLaren? Nigel Stepney's lawyer has said "The evidence in our possession shows there will be other people involved. Some heavy revelations" (link).

Either theory has a similar level of credibility until we know more.

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Telling Ferrari fans that they aren't able to accept the reality was nice and easy! Now take a look at yourselves! :p :

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

I assume you have the evidence that McLaren, as a team, used the infamous document.

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Oh, there is plenty of evidence. Coughlan himself has said he received the documents and that he shared them with the Mclaren team.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Then there's the question of who sent the document from Ferrari, and why?

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The question is non-sequitur in regards to the guilt or innocence of Mclaren.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Instead of calling McLaren "cheats" couldn't you equally say Ferrari have played a very clever game to deliberately implicate McLaren? Nigel Stepney's lawyer has said "The evidence in our possession shows there will be other people involved. Some heavy revelations" (link).

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Uhh, I said stick to the topic: that of Mclaren looking like cheats. I didn't say they were cheats. Btw, you know what lawyers do for a living, right? Hah. I'll give you a hint: honesty is not in the job description.

I'm sure Ferrari will be more than willing to be gentle with Coughlan if his story involves more McLaren in this novel..

Once again I hate to see how they try to deal with these guys in exchange for a better treatment than actually trying to find out the truth...

The only thing they want to do is get an advantage out of this... the truth? they can live without it!

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Originally Posted by Hendersen

Oh, there is plenty of evidence. Coughlan himself has said he received the documents and that he shared them with the Mclaren team.

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The rumours do not state WHEN he informed the team, if he only did so after the raids happened then there is clearly no problem.

It doesn't help that Ferrari is obviously leaking some information to the Italian press, after all they are the only people in Italy who possess the affidavit with Coughlan and the FIA being the others. One wonders what their objective is in releasing such small bits of information.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Forgive my ignorance of these matters, but is there a criminal case to be heard in such circumstances? If so, what would it be? Is industrial espionage a criminal offence? I must say I've forgotten.

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yes....industrial espionage is a criminal offence........the material that has been passed is protected by patents and copyright laws and belongs exclusively to Ferarri, as all employees are well aware when they sign their contracts to work for the team;......how Mike Coughlan has come into possession of copyrighted Ferarri data is just unbelievable as far as i can see!!!!!1.....He works for McLaren, so he must know the implications of any actions should he be found in possession of sensitive Ferarri data!!!!!!.......this is only going to end with McLaren being EXPELLED from this years championship!!!!!!!!!!!....there is no other course of action for the fia(sco) if it is now proven that other McLaren employees have seen the Ferarri data!!!!!!!!!..........it keeps getting better by the year!!!! :) ......ron dennis this year has really surprised me !!!!....he seems to have taken leave of his brains!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Zico

Looks like a McLaren team member has also been implicated and suspended !


A McLaren statement said: "McLaren became aware on the 3 July 2007 that a senior member of its technical organisation was the subject of a Ferrari investigation regarding the receipt of technical information.

"The team has learnt that this individual had personally received a package of technical information from a Ferrari employee at the end of April.

"While McLaren has no involvement in the matter and condemns such actions it will fully co-operate with any investigation. The individual has in the meanwhile been suspended by the company pending a full and proper investigation of the matter."



http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/moto...ne/6264904.stm

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and not just any old McLaren employee!!!!....only their chief designer no less!!!!!!.........this is only gonna end 1 way, and thats McLaren being expelled from this years championship;.....there is no other outcome if any other McLaren employees are involved or implicated!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Racehound

and not just any old McLaren employee!!!!....only their chief designer no less!!!!!!.........this is only gonna end 1 way, and thats McLaren being expelled from this years championship;.....there is no other outcome if any other McLaren employees are involved or implicated!!!!!

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thanks for that Mr. Positive.... ;)