Your opinion on 'Drag Reduction System'

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Why didn't they think of that? Doh!!!

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It makes you think doesn't it? :p

I almost think the DRS debate will pale into insignificance if Bahrain goes ahead.

Airshifter, I wholeheartedly agree that the racing was terrific in Australia, except for this point:

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Originally Posted by airshifter

Problem with DRS? Tough cookies, they should find a way to keep someone from getting close enough to use it.

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It is the tyres that has made the difference. Tyre degradation was minimal in Melbourne. Where was horrendous build up of marbles?

DRS has/can have the effect of exaggerating the slipstream/speed differential which I do not like.

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Originally Posted by wedge

Airshifter, I wholeheartedly agree that the racing was terrific in Australia, except for this point:



It is the tyres that has made the difference. Tyre degradation was minimal in Melbourne. Where was horrendous build up of marbles?

DRS has/can have the effect of exaggerating the slipstream/speed differential which I do not like.

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But it's not exactly easy to get within a second of the car in front.

That's the point isn't it, that if the car behind gets within a second, that usually means that the car in front is going slower anyway.

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Originally Posted by Mark

That's the point isn't it, that if the car behind gets within a second, that usually means that the car in front is going slower anyway.

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Of course.

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Originally Posted by Mark

That's the point isn't it, that if the car behind gets within a second, that usually means that the car in front is going slower anyway.

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But not at the expense of 'fake' racing.

It seems we've gone from one extreme to the other: boring-good dry races; good-great (but fake) dry races. I'd rather plump with the former.

John Watson's view :

“I think we've had a lot of substantial changes and obviously the tyre change has been the biggest factor. In the last GP, we saw a huge amount of overtaking, although maybe not a huge amount of motor racing. I always look to see motor racing and personally I don't need KERS or DRS – I don't feel they are necessary. The tyre situation currently will provide enough in terms of drop off and strategy and while there has been a lot of overtaking, I don't know how much of it has been what I would call motor racing."

Spot on , John .

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Originally Posted by wedge

But not at the expense of 'fake' racing.

It seems we've gone from one extreme to the other: boring-good dry races; good-great (but fake) dry races. I'd rather plump with the former.

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What is fake though? Personally I feel that all this aero BS is fake too and results in fake races where fake slow drivers can hold up fake fast drivers.

That people would rather see fake racing where no one passes anyone and results are based more or less on qualification and pit strategy rather than seeing fake racing where a driver who is better than another driver is able to pass him.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

John Watson's view :

“I think we've had a lot of substantial changes and obviously the tyre change has been the biggest factor. In the last GP, we saw a huge amount of overtaking, although maybe not a huge amount of motor racing. I always look to see motor racing and personally I don't need KERS or DRS – I don't feel they are necessary. The tyre situation currently will provide enough in terms of drop off and strategy and while there has been a lot of overtaking, I don't know how much of it has been what I would call motor racing."

Spot on , John .

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If John enjoys a good procession then perhaps he should camp out in a cemetary non?

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Originally Posted by Daniel

What is fake though? Personally I feel that all this aero BS is fake too and results in fake races where fake slow drivers can hold up fake fast drivers.

That people would rather see fake racing where no one passes anyone and results are based more or less on qualification and pit strategy rather than seeing fake racing where a driver who is better than another driver is able to pass him.

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I'm afraid I think your reasoning is a bit faulty here, Daniel. You seem to be suggesting that qualifying, for example, is a gimmick along the lines of DRS, when it is an intrinsic part of motor racing. There is simply no comparison between the two, even if said comparison is only being used to make a point.

I find it rather sad that there now seem to be those who have given up on the idea of good racing being produced through anything other than artificial means.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

If John enjoys a good procession then perhaps he should camp out in a cemetary non?

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No, Watson is right, in my opinion. No dry F1 race with that amount of overtaking has ever left me as cold as did Turkey, because I knew it was not happening for the right reasons.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

If John enjoys a good procession then perhaps he should camp out in a cemetary non?

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Included in the quote was this : "The tyre situation currently will provide enough in terms of drop off and strategy ..." .

He enjoys motor racing .

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

No, Watson is right, in my opinion. No dry F1 race with that amount of overtaking has ever left me as cold as did Turkey, because I knew it was not happening for the right reasons.

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I agree to a certain extent, but we're 4 races in and DRS has IMHO been overpowered during only 1 gp :)

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

No, Watson is right, in my opinion. No dry F1 race with that amount of overtaking has ever left me as cold as did Turkey, because I knew it was not happening for the right reasons.

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And , spot on BDunnell .

My feelings exactly .

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I'm afraid I think your reasoning is a bit faulty here, Daniel. You seem to be suggesting that qualifying, for example, is a gimmick along the lines of DRS, when it is an intrinsic part of motor racing. There is simply no comparison between the two, even if said comparison is only being used to make a point.

I find it rather sad that there now seem to be those who have given up on the idea of good racing being produced through anything other than artificial means.

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I didn't mean to give that impression, I merely felt in the past that qualification had a little too much influence on where the driver finished in the race.

When talking about fake racing I was talking about the factors which up until this year made it very hard for cars to overtake other cars even when they were quite a bit faster.

Good racecar design and good racing are mutally exclusive things and measures need to be taken to ensure racing still happens. Does anyone here honestly think that if for instance Adrian Newey could design a feature into his cars to purposely disrupt the airflow going onto cars behind to make his cars nearly impossible to overtake, that Newey wouldn't put it on his cars? You could yammer on about it being the pinnacle of aero design, but if it screws up the racing then it screws up the racing.

If you ask me, the best thing that could happen to F1 would be to put a body over the wheels. Drivers wouldn't be too scared to put in a gutsy move for fear of losing a front wing or a wheel. I know people will slag me off for this but does it really matter if there's a body over the wheels? whether there are 6 wheels? v8's? v10's? As long as the racing is exciting then it doesn't matter. I agree that Turkey was boring because passing wasn't as difficult as it should be, but on other tracks I'm sure they'll get DRS right and it'll make for racing which isn't processional, but at the same time which doesn't involve easy passes.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

And , spot on BDunnell .

My feelings exactly .

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I agree too, but just because it was wrongly setup on one track doesn't mean that it will be the same on other tracks :)

Will it be the same percentage of successful deployment as we've had so far ?

That's a 25% failure rate . Are we to expect another 4 races that are spoiled ?
Does that include Monaco , where we already know it may create real problems ?

Are we looking forward to three quarters of a good season ?

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Will it be the same percentage of successful deployment as we've had so far ?

That's a 25% failure rate . Are we to expect another 4 races that are spoiled ?
Does that include Monaco , where we already know it may create real problems ?

Are we looking forward to three quarters of a good season ?

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Bagwan, why can't you sit down and have a proper discussion rather than extrapolating your "data" and making ridiculous statements.

Frankly, without DRS I think some of the other races we had would be far more boring than they were.

For me, previous years were more like three quarters of a **** season where the order of qualification more or less dictated the end result of the race, rather than how fast the driver/car was on the day.

I get it, you don't like DRS, doesn't mean that everyone else hates it too, or that it will be as unbalanced as it was in Turkey for the rest of the season.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

John Watson's view :

“I think we've had a lot of substantial changes and obviously the tyre change has been the biggest factor. In the last GP, we saw a huge amount of overtaking, although maybe not a huge amount of motor racing. I always look to see motor racing and personally I don't need KERS or DRS – I don't feel they are necessary. The tyre situation currently will provide enough in terms of drop off and strategy and while there has been a lot of overtaking, I don't know how much of it has been what I would call motor racing."

Spot on , John .

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If that was JYS commenting, presumably you would dissagree with the old fart......?

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

If that was JYS commenting, presumably you would dissagree with the old fart......?

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Personally I never place a huge amount of weight on this opinion of any driver who has been out of the sport for as long as some of the people who tend to blab on about F1. They don't really represent the way that the person with his butt in a carbon fibre race seat, in the grandstand or on the sofa at home feels or thinks about F1 at the moment.

Standard layout for a post for some members of this forum

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Their opinion

Opinion of race driver who's not been driving competitively for over 20-30 years which agrees with them

Statement about how this makes them right and how the thread should be closed down

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Bagwan, why can't you sit down and have a proper discussion rather than extrapolating your "data" and making ridiculous statements.

Frankly, without DRS I think some of the other races we had would be far more boring than they were.

For me, previous years were more like three quarters of a **** season where the order of qualification more or less dictated the end result of the race, rather than how fast the driver/car was on the day.

I get it, you don't like DRS, doesn't mean that everyone else hates it too, or that it will be as unbalanced as it was in Turkey for the rest of the season.

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Why , may I ask , can you not simply respond to any of my questions , rather than calling my statements "ridiculous" ?

Previous years did not have tires like they have now .

Some others have stated they also do not like it .
Why intimate that I think everyone hates it ? You clearly don't . It doesn't help your argument .

What guarantee is there that they will get it right at all for the rest of the season ?
There are already people wondering about the length of the zone in Barcelona .

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

If that was JYS commenting, presumably you would dissagree with the old fart......?

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Why would you think that ?
I have nothing but respect for him .

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Personally I never place a huge amount of weight on this opinion of any driver who has been out of the sport for as long as some of the people who tend to blab on about F1. They don't really represent the way that the person with his butt in a carbon fibre race seat, in the grandstand or on the sofa at home feels or thinks about F1 at the moment.

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"Some of the people who tend to blab on..." also quote Fernando in this very thread , who does sit in carbon fibre .

But , what do you care , since it's easier to try to discredit my opinion by dismissing a real F1 driver , than to respond to simple questions .

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Originally Posted by Daniel

I didn't mean to give that impression, I merely felt in the past that qualification had a little too much influence on where the driver finished in the race.

When talking about fake racing I was talking about the factors which up until this year made it very hard for cars to overtake other cars even when they were quite a bit faster.

Good racecar design and good racing are mutally exclusive things and measures need to be taken to ensure racing still happens. Does anyone here honestly think that if for instance Adrian Newey could design a feature into his cars to purposely disrupt the airflow going onto cars behind to make his cars nearly impossible to overtake, that Newey wouldn't put it on his cars? You could yammer on about it being the pinnacle of aero design, but if it screws up the racing then it screws up the racing.

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I agree with you up to a point, as one has to ask why we become interested in any sport. The answer, surely, is because of the element of close competition which makes it exciting. Whether the sport is darts, bowls, snooker, football, cricket, athletics, F1 or anything else, we want to see a contest. This is what renders sport something we want to watch. Were it not the case, were the technology (for example) the interesting part, F1 would consist of qualifying and nothing more. Why bother racing in that case? No, sport has to be something people want to watch. This is not some modern phenomenon connected with wanting to see 'a show' — rather, it is the reason people have been excited by sport since time immemorial. If sport ceases to be exciting, it loses its raison d'etre.

Where our views diverge is that I simply don't like the means by which the increased amount of overtaking in F1 this season has been achieved. Far rather to take a step back and make the wings smaller, in my opinion. There is nothing wrong with slowing motorsport down a bit — far from it. In sportscar racing, it had to happen because the speeds being attained were becoming ridiculous. I don't consider those cars to be any less exciting to watch as a result. Motorsport is not all about outright speed. Some might consider the simplification of F1 aerodynamics to be an unduly retrograde step, but they are probably the sort of people who are interested in golf because of the club technology. F1 innovation used to be interesting to the casual viewer when it involved cars with six wheels, or fan cars. Nowadays, with the technology being hidden, that is no longer the case. I think a 'back to basics' approach combined with less prescriptive legislation in certain (but not all) areas would be best.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

If you ask me, the best thing that could happen to F1 would be to put a body over the wheels. Drivers wouldn't be too scared to put in a gutsy move for fear of losing a front wing or a wheel. I know people will slag me off for this but does it really matter if there's a body over the wheels?

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Well, it has been done before, by Mercedes and Connaught. But, as far as I'm concerned, F1 ceases to be F1 and becomes DTM or sportscar racing if it's anything other than an open-wheeled formula.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Personally I never place a huge amount of weight on this opinion of any driver who has been out of the sport for as long as some of the people who tend to blab on about F1. They don't really represent the way that the person with his butt in a carbon fibre race seat, in the grandstand or on the sofa at home feels or thinks about F1 at the moment.

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Stewart and Watson tend to represent my views pretty well. And I suspect there are those in the paddock today who may well feel the same, but can't say so.

here is a solution for monaco, just make the entire track drs active and allow drivers to pick and choose where they would want to pass or defend
both the car in front and behind may use the drs
it would reward the brave,bold and cunning; add an extra element to the race, neutralize any perceived advantage and maybe provide a spectacular show.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Stewart and Watson tend to represent my views pretty well. And I suspect there are those in the paddock today who may well feel the same, but can't say so.

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Indeed, and their views reflect those of another former driver I spoke with yesterday who is simply exasperated by the changes. "It's not racing is it" was his general view.

Mind you I did have to chuckle when he was talking about the tyres, the properties of which he felt hadn't changed much in the 30yrs since he'd used them on the '81 Arrows :p They didn't last then and they don't last now.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I agree with you up to a point, as one has to ask why we become interested in any sport. The answer, surely, is because of the element of close competition which makes it exciting. Whether the sport is darts, bowls, snooker, football, cricket, athletics, F1 or anything else, we want to see a contest. This is what renders sport something we want to watch. Were it not the case, were the technology (for example) the interesting part, F1 would consist of qualifying and nothing more. Why bother racing in that case? No, sport has to be something people want to watch. This is not some modern phenomenon connected with wanting to see 'a show' — rather, it is the reason people have been excited by sport since time immemorial. If sport ceases to be exciting, it loses its raison d'etre.

Where our views diverge is that I simply don't like the means by which the increased amount of overtaking in F1 this season has been achieved. Far rather to take a step back and make the wings smaller, in my opinion. There is nothing wrong with slowing motorsport down a bit — far from it. In sportscar racing, it had to happen because the speeds being attained were becoming ridiculous. I don't consider those cars to be any less exciting to watch as a result. Motorsport is not all about outright speed. Some might consider the simplification of F1 aerodynamics to be an unduly retrograde step, but they are probably the sort of people who are interested in golf because of the club technology. F1 innovation used to be interesting to the casual viewer when it involved cars with six wheels, or fan cars. Nowadays, with the technology being hidden, that is no longer the case. I think a 'back to basics' approach combined with less prescriptive legislation in certain (but not all) areas would be best.



Well, it has been done before, by Mercedes and Connaught. But, as far as I'm concerned, F1 ceases to be F1 and becomes DTM or sportscar racing if it's anything other than an open-wheeled formula.

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As always I agree that DRS didn't work well in Turkey, that much is clear to all concerned :) I think however if its tweaked so rather than allowing people to pass, it merely puts them on a slightly more equal footing then I think people won't be so negative about it.

I agree about the technology, sure it's interesting for anoraks like us who appreciate the design and the creative interpretation of the rules, but like you say, for most people it's hidden and boring.

Personally I'd have no issue with F1 being DTM or Sportscars, but that's just me. I see nothing inherently good about F1 being open wheeled. It's just the way it was and that's the only reason why it is how it is now.

I'd be quite happy to watch 20 something of these on a track on a Sunday if it were possible.

http://www.indiancarsbikes.in/wp-con...mo-5-image.jpg

Or if they looked like these

http://www.quattroworld.com/wp-conte...2/R15coupe.jpg
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/Peugeot908-1.jpg
Then that'd be fine too

I simply see no reason other than nostalgia, for keeping it as an open wheel series :)

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Originally Posted by Daniel

I simply see no reason other than nostalgia, for keeping it as an open wheel series :)

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Isn't that a bit like saying you see no reason other than nostalgia for football (soccer ;) ) to be played with a round ball?

The point is that F1 is an open-wheel series. That is part of what makes it F1. Cover the wheels and close the cockpits and it becomes sportscars, not F1. We already have a sportscars series, and a DTM series for that matter. Fans of one may not necessarily be fans of the other because each series is distinct and different.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Isn't that a bit like saying you see no reason other than nostalgia for football (soccer ;) ) to be played with a round ball?

The point is that F1 is an open-wheel series. That is part of what makes it F1. Cover the wheels and close the cockpits and it becomes sportscars, not F1. We already have a sportscars series, and a DTM series for that matter. Fans of one may not necessarily be fans of the other because each series is distinct and different.

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Well I think that it would still be different to DTM because of the tracks being different and the fact that DTM is a sillouhette series. It's different to sportscars because there is more freedom in sportscars for the configuration of the engine and the fact that an F1 race lasts 2 hours at most and a sportscar race lasts far longer and involved driver changes.

I simply don't believe that if just before the race, all the teams put fairings over the wheels, that millions would switch off in disgust. This reminds me a lot of how some people in the WRC forum were up in arms when the FIA took co-drivers names off the windows of the car because they felt it would confuse people with single digit IQ's into thinking that Colin McRae was co-driving and Nicky Grist was driving. I digress of course, but I feel that a change to chosed wheel or at the very least faired wheels would make for better and safer racing.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Mind you I did have to chuckle when he was talking about the tyres, the properties of which he felt hadn't changed much in the 30yrs since he'd used them on the '81 Arrows :p They didn't last then and they don't last now.

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Am I allowed to say "told you so"? :p

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Am I allowed to say "told you so"? :p

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No you're not. It's against forum rule's and I've reported you :angryfire :p

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Originally Posted by Daniel

No you're not. It's against forum rule's and I've reported you :angryfire :p

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:bigcry: stinky wee poo! ;)

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

:bigcry: stinky wee poo! ;)

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You said poo! Reported! :mark:

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Originally Posted by Daniel

You said poo! Reported! :mark:

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:bigcry: :bigcry: I'm gonna tell on you.........

Children please :mark:

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Originally Posted by Mark

Children please :mark:

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He started it.......

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Isn't that a bit like saying you see no reason other than nostalgia for football (soccer ;) ) to be played with a round ball?

The point is that F1 is an open-wheel series. That is part of what makes it F1. Cover the wheels and close the cockpits and it becomes sportscars, not F1. We already have a sportscars series, and a DTM series for that matter. Fans of one may not necessarily be fans of the other because each series is distinct and different.

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:up:

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

He started it.......

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You just know we're both going to get a letter back home to our parents. Where are you going to hide yours? I'm going to leave mine on the bus.