Renault investigated by FIA !

I guess those that wanted Ferrari punished for not controlling their employees now want McLaren punished, again, for not doing the same. So that would be another $100 million and goodbye 2008. ;)

I think a distinction between spying and theft needs to be made. Spying is OK. They all do it and nobody has a problem with it. Taking photos and doing various forms of analysis on other cars is OK. Taking actual data, in whatever medium, is not. That's theft, or the receipt of stolen goods, and that's what McLaren were found guilty of and what Renault are being investigated for.

Looks like McLaren just moved one spot further up the pit lane next year. ;)

The FIA is losing control over the situation

Give it a week and an allegation is going to come out that some other team used Renault info, it is going to be a domino effect that will stall the 2008 season. I can feel the storm gathering. F1 is becoming a farce and these legal cases and potential problems are doing nothing but diminishing the value of the sport.

From McClaren's end I can see their logic, as this precedent has been set up by the FIA. The guy Alonso who cost them $100million ( after the FIA had already handed out a verdict) is now going to the competitor that they themselves "cheated" on them. Ergo poetic justice would afford them the opportunity to hand it to Renault. For a trully ironic twist, they should have waited until Alonso signed on the dotted line and the team were 3 races into the season.

But seriously if I were the FIA I would do the following with hase

1. reduce McClaren fine to a nominal $1 million

2. hand out the same punishement to Renault

3. Reinstate the constructors points and let the current teams keep their winnigs, but maintain the #2 status for McClaren next year with all the benefits they are entitled to at that position.

4. from here on out ajudicate all team vs. team matters through an Arbitratior in order to ensure maximum impartiality as well as to stay out of making judgements. along with that, institute a policy whereby teams as part of the concord system CANNOT involve local or national judicial systems in a sporting matter. I am sure the italian government has better things to do than trying to ensure a Ferrari victory through their court system

5. Come up with a specific, transparent and a concise uniform code of conduct with specific penalities and associated values in place. No more subjective or biased decisions. $1million for each specific infraction.

6. Only refer a situation to arbitration, if it meets a stricter standard of "possession with actual confirmed and definitve use, resulting in exceeding performance and complete lack of distinction from competitors part" and/or "components/parts used that show clear to have been designed from other teams data/IP and violating teams own IP lacks independent evolution odd said component/part.
Simply posessing a dosier or files is not enough to hammer down a team.

7. Cease the retroactive punishement of teams as from the 2008 season.

8. Rules stated at the begining of the season cannot be ammended throughout the year to grandfather "changes designs or concepts" that as the rules clearly state are in violtion.

9. Each team gets 1 ( and only 1) member to join the rules and competition commitee that evaluates and verifies the legality of new components requested throughout the year. Team member may not disclose any technical information to their team and serve only to verify and assess the legality of the components rather than pass judgement to minimize their competitive disadvantege. 75% majority required to disapprove new components.

That's what I would implement if I were leading the FIA, no more backroom dealings, no more secret pacts just good sound business. If the NFL and FIFA can use arbitration, then why not F1

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

I think a distinction between spying and theft needs to be made. Spying is OK. They all do it and nobody has a problem with it. Taking photos and doing various forms of analysis on other cars is OK. Taking actual data, in whatever medium, is not. That's theft, or the receipt of stolen goods, and that's what McLaren were found guilty of and what Renault are being investigated for.

---

I agree in part but feel that the criteria should be set to "using actual data"
everyone copies,passes on information etc. Every business corporation in every industry does it. They reverse engineer, they posees other companies data etc. But itis only when coke tastes exactly like pepsi, when lays bbq chips taste like herr's bbq chips, when McD's comes ut with onion rings that are identical to Burger King's etc, that the other company sues for patent infrigment. It happens in the movie/tv business in clothing companes, everywhere. Simply possessing info is not enough, in my book, to hand down draconian penalties.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bagwan

Shouldn't someone be getting upset at the title of this thread ?

They have been accused , not convicted .

Given that Flavio was shouting that he would have liked the weight distribution info on the Ferrari as well , back when the data was streaming to McLaren from the reds , is it inconceivable that he is in the same situation that Ron said he was in ?

Perhaps he didn't know .

Not that that should excuse him from being responsible , as he signed on as being so , just like Ron .
But , that will likely be his story , using his public disdain for the McLaren saga as evidence of his state of mind at the time , using Ron's precedent to cop a lesser fine due to a lesser amount of info .

Playing in Flavio's favour also , is the fact that Renault never really looked like they had a hope , showing that , if they had a peek , they certainly didn't show it . It sure didn't look like the had .

---

I was witing for this. look how all the mcLaren fans sticking up for their team, in total denial, hanging on shred of excuse available.But forget about applying the same rules of innocent until proven guilty. How hypocritical! This thread is revolting. What an unplesant spectacle!!! I always knew that everybody defending McLaren were doing it out of spite, and this is the prove. Way to go McLAren fans!!! Way to go..........

WOW@!!!! McLaren under scrutiny and Renault maeby in troulble too??? I am sure Ferrari is enjoyng all this :) :) :) :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ioan

But I don't know if their stance would be the same if there wouldn't already have been the McLaren case with it's outcome.

---

Interesting point, although if the account is true, their 'stance' on the situation had nothing to do with the McLaren case because it had all been 'resolved' before we knew anything about it. And the statement is just as open to other interpretations as anything else we've seen recently.

Renault obviously is putting the most positive spin on it. But here is another view, from grandprix.com ..
"Given what Renault has admitted it is fairly clear that the team is in at least as bad a situation as was McLaren - something which Flavio Briatore denied when the first rumours emerged about the problem.
Some would argue that this is much worse as Renault is admitting that the information was inside its factory and in its computer network - something which McLaren denied being the case with the documents that Mike Coughlan received from Ferrari and of which not trace has been found despite strenuous efforts by the FIA.
The argument that not much information was involved is irrelevant as the FIA rules do not quantify how much espionage is acceptable. A dozen disks are as bad as 780 pages of paperwork.
The fact that there are witness statements from a number of Renault engineers (we hear the number is 15) admitting that they have seen the data suggests that this is much more of a problem than was the case against McLaren."
(http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19855.html)
Another site said the data was only removed a year after the engineer started at Renault, and that some of the engineers who saw it and signed the witness statements/admissions were pretty senior. Also Flav has been quoted saying that McLaren should automatically have been thrown out of both championships, for spying.

So far Max has kept quiet, we'll have to see which way he spins it. He's in a tight spot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PSfan

The problem with that being the FIA cannot dictate what Bernie/FOM pays out, so its easy to assume that the combined fine plus resulting payout Mcleran lost would = 100, however there is nothing stopping Bernie from taking Ron into a back room and saying "you guys did I fine job, I think you still deserve the 2nd place prize money, there you go old chap"

---

Anyone can give them money, but the fine was $100m.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PSfan

This is by far the most idoitic thing I've read on here in days!!! Sue Ferrari for using the data the police uncovered? use it for what? stand up comedy? what could Ferrari have any use of that information? it may have been passed on to the FIA who then used it against McLeran BUT Fererri used it too? Maybe ALonso passed on a secret Mcleran recipe for brownies that Ferrari used at a formula 1 bake sale?

---

Ferrari produced it as evidence. As in the UK, you can't just get someone's phone records for private use. Not legally, anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PSfan

We now have conflicting reports on this, renault said, and in enough detail that if they are proven right, would suggest the possibility of the macs still using mass dampers and other funny gadgets also deemed illegal, all found on 3 floppies disks.

---

Any design is legal at the design stage. Renault were just saying that they couldn't have benefitted from those designs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PSfan

And then we have another story claiming this is much worse the what the Macs had on Ferrari...

And if the evidence proves Renault acted correctly on this matter? As I suggested earlier, should this prove to be nothing more then McLeran attempting to regain some dignity after the steyney-gate then I hope FIA has a couple more books they can throw at them...

---

If that's proved, it's proved, but at this point in time, it doesn't look likely. Renault look in trouble. And Max.

I don't think Renault has too much to worry about. McLaren races for a living. Renault sells street cars for a living. Renault has been in and out of F1. Back in 2005 they were making noises like they wouldn't be in F1 for 2007. If Renault is found to be in violation of one or more sporting regulations the FIA will not hammer them like they did McLaren because Renault will tell Max to stuff it and leave F1. Oddly enough, the results of the FIA's inspection of McLaren's 2008 car will not be released until the Renault matter is settled. If Renault is found to be in violation and suffers a minor penalty, McLaren will be told to smile and agree it's fair or there could be some problem areas with the 2008 car. If everybody plays nice, McLaren's 2008 car will be certified as 100% McLaren and the 2008 season will be saved.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the team owners have already been quietly discussing a new, breakaway series again. Especially since there is no new agreement in place.

coming from a ''biased'' Mclaren fan I really think this is BS.. Renault said they even told the FIA and Mclaren as soon as they go it so I don't think they should be guilty... this whole spy thing is a joke.. it's been going on for ages and just now all of a sudden Formula 1 teams are spying on eachother.. yaah right!