Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
:D
Even in defeat (although this wasn't an argument about/with Ioan) you dig your heals in.
Well at least if we ever agree on something, and are arguing with others, I'll know I can count on you. ;)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
:D
Even in defeat (although this wasn't an argument about/with Ioan) you dig your heals in.
Well at least if we ever agree on something, and are arguing with others, I'll know I can count on you. ;)
Practise times indeed, are absolutely and totally irrelevant. Unless you put every driver on the same program.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
No, but I have explained it 1000 times already. Alonso didnt put a fast lap together, he did his fastest sector times on 2 consequtive laps and he had TRAFFIC problems when doing those laps.Quote:
So Kimi being 1.079s quicker in comparison with Alonso's fastest lap in Melbourne is fiction?
Everyone could see McLarens were faster at Malaysia, just as everyone could see Ferraris were faster at Australia. :)Quote:
Can you not see where some of us are having a little difficulty squaring your claim that Ferrari have not been quicker than McLaren, with what is there for everyone to see? Eliminating the times that Ferrari were clearly quicker because it doesn't fit with your view does rather weaken your argument, unless I haven't understood what you're saying, and if that's the case then I apologise.
If you havent done such a survey, then why claim something you cant in any way prove? Better not do something like that in court or the judge will laugh at you.Quote:
Originally Posted by raphael123
And where exactly have I claimed that McLaren have overall been faster this year? I said speedwise they have been equal, with both teams having one race where they were clearly quicker and one race where they were equal.
lets put things in orderQuote:
In fairness, the stint in which Lewis managed to open a slight gap, the majority of that was made during the pitstops, as he stayed out 2-3 laps longer than Kimi, and on top of that, due to pitting in later, and putting 5-6 laps less fuel on board (than Kimi did), had a much shorter pitstop, compared to Kimi who had to put in 5-6 laps more fuel, and was out there on a full fuel load while Lewis was running on fumes - allowed him to open up quite a gap. Then also during the 2nd stint after the pitstops, Lewis was on less fuel and newer tyres, which made sense that Lewis was slightly quicker. In the end, the McLaren start and their strategy after that stopped Ferrari from showing their true pace, but it was clear all weekend beforehand that Ferrari had the quicker car.
Kimi 1st pitstop at Malaysia was 2 laps earlier than Hamiltons. His pitstop lasted 2,5 seconds more (they had a slight problem which cost around 1 second).
Kimis second pitstop was 3 laps later than Hamiltons, so there was no 5-6 laps later as you claim.
In the 2nd stint, when Kimi had 3 laps more fuel, which probably costs around 0,25 second per lap the gap between him and Hamilton increased from 6 seconds on lap 21 to 12,9 seconds on lap 37. Thats 6,9 seconds within 16 laps. Thats over 0,43 seconds on average per lap. So clearly Kimi wasnt able to close in on LH, which he should have been able to do had he had the quicker car, despite the 3 laps of extra fuel. But he wasnt able to do that.
Now If KR couldnt match the pace of rookie LH, what chance did he have against Alonso in the other McLaren? None whatsoever. Time to admit McLaren on the raceday had an advantage at Malaysia, and a clear one at that too. Both Ferraris had empty track for quite long periods of the race and the only thing they had to do was push hard and close down on the McLarens. They werent able to do it, ergo, they had a slower car. Sector times put McLarens dominance into a clear show aswell.
If you want to talk about the weekend beforehand (do you mean qualifying at Malaysia or australia? I will assume qualy at Malaysia), then FA and LH beat both ferraris in qual 1 and in Qual 2 Alonso was clearly the fastest too. But those laps in qualy would have meant nothing had they not been able to show great pace again in the race, but they were able to show it and show how competetive their package was there.
In the final qualifying, Ferrari drivers performed better at Malaysia and Bahrain. Both times Massa put in a very impressive laptime, whereas his rivals werent able to reproduce their form.Quote:
So ok, ignore the practice times for the time being, let's compare the qualifying, Ferrari have got 3 poles, McLaren 0.
I explained quite clearly about the Bahrain race and the problems Massa and Hamilton encountered at various stages and how Massa wasnt as much hurt by his as Hamilton was hurt by his, and that your bringing up of practise times was dumb.Quote:
I'm not sure which points I missed your referring to sorry.
And in the case of Mclaren, that laptime very clearly wasnt the ultimate laptime they were able to achieve. On its own fastest lap is irrelevant, you have to understand the context.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Actually, no. FA was stuck behind Hamilton for 2/3 of the race and only in the final stint he was able to be free. By then it was a processionQuote:
Originally Posted by raphael123
Kimi was driving compromised and Masa just plainly fncked up! How does that illustrate the Mclarens were the faster of the two?Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
Only thing it shows to me is that Mclaren had a very good trouble free weekend. Ferrari couldn't keep from tripping themselves up. Nothing more, nothing less.
Interesting how you make your argument. Unfortunately pace simply wasn't a factor of weight in for Kimi. Although that is one contributing factor it would also help to have a full power engine (see above).Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
How does that factor into your theory?
It does definately give you an indication of which car is the quickest. If your car is top of the practice sheets 9/10 - that tends to suggest you have the quickest car. It's quite rare for a team to top all the time sheets, only to be beaten by a team which was nowhere near the top of the timesheets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
You always have an excuse. However when it's pointed out to you that Massa f*cked up in Malaysia, and Kimi had a low revved engine, plus a sh!t strategy, that does not seem to be reason enough to show the Ferrari had a slight edge in terms of pace.Quote:
No, but I have explained it 1000 times already. Alonso didnt put a fast lap together, he did his fastest sector times on 2 consequtive laps and he had TRAFFIC problems when doing those laps.
Well, not everyone. Have you carried out a survey? :) If you havent done such a survey, then why claim something you cant in any way prove? Better not do something like that in court or the judge will laugh at you.Quote:
Everyone could see McLarens were faster at Malaysia, just as everyone could see Ferraris were faster at Australia. :)
It was more of a figure of speech, I didn't think I'd have to explain that to you :dozey: But my point still stands. I haven't seen anyone on the paddock come out and say that McLaren are as quick as Ferrari. Everyone has so far said Ferrari have a slight edge.Quote:
If you havent done such a survey, then why claim something you cant in any way prove? Better not do something like that in court or the judge will laugh at you.
I find your thinking that McLaren were equal to Ferrari in Bahrain quite amusing. They were very close, but Ferrari clearly had an advantage, as the results show us.Quote:
And where exactly have I claimed that McLaren have overall been faster this year? I said speedwise they have been equal, with both teams having one race where they were clearly quicker and one race where they were equal.
They finished 1st and 3rd compared to McLarens 2nd and 5th. Neither teams had any major problems. The fastest lap was 1st and 3rd for Ferrari, McLaren 2nd and 4th. The same also applies to qualifying 3. Ferrari were also quicker in the other Qualifying sessions, and in Friday's practice times. So even if you exclude the practice sessions, and just look at qualifying 2 & 3, Race results, and fastest lap, Ferrari quite clearly beat McLAren. Yet you still claim they were equal, based on the fact Hamilton managed to hold onto Massa in the opening stint, and close in on Massa when Massa cruised to the end.
I was referring to the fuel loads. As you say, Kimi pitted in 2 laps earlier, and pitted in 3 laps later - therefore he had to put in at least 5 laps more fuel than Lewi in the first stop.Quote:
lets put things in order
Kimi 1st pitstop at Malaysia was 2 laps earlier than Hamiltons. His pitstop lasted 2,5 seconds more (they had a slight problem which cost around 1 second).
Kimis second pitstop was 3 laps later than Hamiltons, so there was no 5-6 laps later as you claim.
Your quite happy to use stat's when it suits you, but when turned the other way round, you refuse to accept them as valid. Is there any point in a discussion with you? As has been explained, Ferrari stuffed up their weekend, and simply failed to get the best out of the car, while McLaren completely optimised the car they had. Massa messed up the start, and compromised Kimi's start too, and then spun. After that the best he could have hoped for was 4th, and without wanting to risk another error, failed to capitalise on his bigger speed than Heidfeld. Kimi was very conservative, and as has been pointing out, was carrying a weak engine all race. I think that goes some way to explaining why he wasn't as quick as some might have expected.Quote:
In the 2nd stint, when Kimi had 3 laps more fuel, which probably costs around 0,25 second per lap the gap between him and Hamilton increased from 6 seconds on lap 21 to 12,9 seconds on lap 37. Thats 6,9 seconds within 16 laps. Thats over 0,43 seconds on average per lap. So clearly Kimi wasnt able to close in on LH, which he should have been able to do had he had the quicker car, despite the 3 laps of extra fuel. But he wasnt able to do that.
Now If KR couldnt match the pace of rookie LH, what chance did he have against Alonso in the other McLaren? None whatsoever. Time to admit McLaren on the raceday had an advantage at Malaysia, and a clear one at that too. Both Ferraris had empty track for quite long periods of the race and the only thing they had to do was push hard and close down on the McLarens. They werent able to do it, ergo, they had a slower car. Sector times put McLarens dominance into a clear show aswell.
PS: Where do you get the figures 0.25s per lap for 3 laps on board etc? :)
So why is this not a valid arguement for Ferrari in Bahrain? They dominated practice, and Q1 & 2, and then controlled the race from start to finish. Surely if you can use that as an arguement to show McLaren had the pace over Ferrari that weekend, then it can be used to show Ferrari had the pace over McLaren in Bahrain. What's the difference?Quote:
If you want to talk about the weekend beforehand (do you mean qualifying at Malaysia or australia? I will assume qualy at Malaysia), then FA and LH beat both ferraris in qual 1 and in Qual 2 Alonso was clearly the fastest too. But those laps in qualy would have meant nothing had they not been able to show great pace again in the race, but they were able to show it and show how competetive their package was there.
Another excuse! So when McLaren beat Ferrari, it's because McLaren had a quicker car. When Ferrari beat the McLarens, it's because the drivers did a better job than the McLaren drivers, and nothing to do with a car advantage. It's becoming increasingly hard to take your arguement seriously now Garry.Quote:
In the final qualifying, Ferrari drivers performed better at Malaysia and Bahrain. Both times Massa put in a very impressive laptime, whereas his rivals werent able to reproduce their form.
If you want to bring drivers performance into it, I think we can safely say that Ferrari had a big off day in Malaysia, which allowed McLaren to win, even if they didn't have a car as quick as Ferrari, or at least they didnt have a quicker car! Massa spun off and looked dejected, and Kimi was pretty conservative, as he has been all season. So can we not say it's Ferrari's drivers, rather than their lack of pace in the car that resulted in McLaren's 1-2 in Malayisa? Or can that excuse only be used for Ferrari? I don't think many people would say Massa and Kimi have performced better than Alonso and Lewis! Alonso and Lewis have been all but perfect so far, apart from Alonso who maybe lost a couple of points in Bahrain.
But you bringing practice times in Malaysia isn't dumb?Quote:
I explained quite clearly about the Bahrain race and the problems Massa and Hamilton encountered at various stages and how Massa wasnt as much hurt by his as Hamilton was hurt by his, and that your bringing up of practise times was dumb.
And I didn't see you clearly explain the problems they both suffered :dozey:
I agree with that.Quote:
And in the case of Mclaren, that laptime very clearly wasnt the ultimate laptime they were able to achieve. On its own fastest lap is irrelevant, you have to understand the context.
What race are you talking about?Quote:
Actually, no. FA was stuck behind Hamilton for 2/3 of the race and only in the final stint he was able to be free. By then it was a procession
Monaco just two weeks away. Even better, he's on top of the championship points going in.Quote:
Originally Posted by baker
Does it in Montreal! Some of the previous posts make for an interesting read now he's done it and actually leading in the points.
is it good?
How sweet it is :up:
same here mate.. or he can win both those races :D .. great drive by the stunning young Brit.. He's gotten a lot of attention on Canada's local news.. which you never hear of F1! I hope Lewis can bring more attention to F1 in Canada and in the ''non traditional'' F1 countries like Jamaica, South Africa,Scotland,Ireland ect ect. well doneQuote:
Originally Posted by astraracer20
Scotland? IMO Scotland is as tuned to the F1 as the rest of Britain. Specially considering a certain driver who has been depicting Scotland's flag on his helmet for more than decade now!Quote:
Originally Posted by raikk
OK, Back to hamilton. Great win. He had the measure of everyone. What compusure! What maturity! To hold his nerve during 4 SCs. Great win for the rookie. He is a future WDC. Mark my words ;)