I will probably be banned for this, but...shooting thread!

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

The National Guard, which is legally under the control of each Governor of a State or Territory, is considered the modern equivalent of a militia.

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No. It does not:
10 USC § 311 - Militia: composition and classes | LII / Legal Information Institute
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

The commas that separates the militia from the right to keep and bear arms and from "shall not be infringed" makes them separate points.

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So what? Big fat deal:

Hammock v. Loan & Trust Co. - 105 U.S. 77 (1881) :: Justia US Supreme Court Center
Section 49 of chapter 37, Rev.Stat. Ill., 1874 (p. 332), is to be construed as if there was no comma between the words "to hear and determine motions" and the words "to dissolve injunctions." Punctuation is no part of a statute.

Even if your statement were to be true, several versions of the constitution have two, three or even five commas. The statute must be read as a whole. schmenke's argument still is completely valid.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

No. It does not:
10 USC § 311 - Militia: composition and classes | LII / Legal Information Institute
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.



So what? Big fat deal:

Hammock v. Loan & Trust Co. - 105 U.S. 77 (1881) :: Justia US Supreme Court Center
Section 49 of chapter 37, Rev.Stat. Ill., 1874 (p. 332), is to be construed as if there was no comma between the words "to hear and determine motions" and the words "to dissolve injunctions." Punctuation is no part of a statute.

Even if your statement were to be true, several versions of the constitution have two, three or even five commas. The statute must be read as a whole. schmenke's argument still is completely valid.

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I said-- CONSIDERED-- and on your second point the U.S. Supreme Court says you and he are WRONG.

You forgot this:


(b)The classes of the militia are—
(1)the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2)the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

I said-- CONSIDERED-- and on your second point the U.S. Supreme Court says you and he are WRONG.

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Where? Considering, I've just shown you a Supreme Court case proving otherwise. Please provide proof.

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Originally Posted by Lousada

Sorry, I find that a little hard to believe. Could you please give me your source for that to prove me wrong??

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Even the newspapers in the Euro region will give you that information. UK is violent crime capital of Europe - Telegraph

You can use just about any database and the robbery, assault, rape, property crimes, etc are higher in most of Eurpope than they are in the US. From what I can find the rates are falling faster in the US also. The murder rate is the one place that the US lags in.

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Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

Murder - Crime in the United States 2004
Victim/Offender Relationships

Of the homicides for which law enforcement provided supplemental data to the UCR Program, the victim-offender relationship was unknown for 44.1 percent of the victims. For the incidents in which the relationships were known, 76.8 percent of the victims knew their killers and 23.2 percent were slain by strangers. Among the incidents in which the victims knew their killers, 29.8 percent were murdered by family members and 70.2 percent were killed by acquaintances. (Based on Table 2.11.) The 2004 data also revealed that 33.0 percent of female victims were killed by their husbands or boyfriends, and 2.7 percent of the male victims were slain by their wives or girlfriends. (Based on Tables 2.4 and 2.11.)

Murder - Crime in the United States 2004

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That data hasn't changed much in recent years, but the data within the expanded databases shows a much larger view of the overall picture.

FBI

In particular if one views the racial profiles and the Metropolitan Statistical Areas, it becomes obvious where the majority of violent crime takes place. FBI
If essentially any gang related area is compared the rates rise substantially over other areas.

On an overall basis, crime rates in the US have been dropping for years.

FBI

More and more states are allowed concealed carry permits and various "castle" laws, which also extend to vehicles in a number of states now. If guns are the cause of so many crimes, why are the crime rates dropping when legal gun ownership laws are becoming more relaxed?

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Originally Posted by airshifter

T
More and more states are allowed concealed carry permits and various "castle" laws, which also extend to vehicles in a number of states now. If guns are the cause of so many crimes, why are the crime rates dropping when legal gun ownership laws are becoming more relaxed?

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Who said "guns are the cause of so many crimes"? Not me.. false argument F- (I have said that the ready availability of handguns allows even the laziest, and stupidest, meth-ed out or drunken fool or paranoid civilian or the memeber of the Gang in Blue to rapidly escalate a situation to deadly levels....

Just today in my city a totem pole was raised in memorium to an old local woodcarver---who like me was somewhat deaf---who was murdered by some 27 year old punk who decided in about 7 seconds from when jumped out of his car and shouted 3 times in 3 second STOP, that this old guy facing away needed to die and in cold blood shot (5 or 6 shots) the guy down...The Police oversight Committee said it was a bad shooting. And, of course, the cop was allowed to resign..)
Too rapid escalation to fatal levels...


Correlation does not imply causation... another false argument. F-

It could just as likely be rising global temperature and decreasing number of pirates worldwide since the 1600s.
http://montaraventures.com/pix/piratestats.jpg
Oh wait, that was the poof the the FSM was the creator of the Universe.

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Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

Just today in my city a totem pole was raised in memorium to an old local woodcarver---who like me was somewhat deaf---who was murdered by some 27 year old punk who decided in about 7 seconds from when jumped out of his car and shouted 3 times in 3 second STOP, that this old guy facing away needed to die and in cold blood shot (5 or 6 shots) the guy down...The Police oversight Committee said it was a bad shooting. And, of course, the cop was allowed to resign..)
Too rapid escalation to fatal levels...

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So you are arguing for the police to not be armed?????

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

The National Guard, which is legally under the control of each Governor of a State or Territory, is considered the modern equivalent of a militia.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

No. It does not:
10 USC § 311 - Militia: composition and classes | LII / Legal Information Institute
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

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So where does any of that refute Bob's point that the National Guard is today's militia, and that it's controled by State Governers?

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Did you forget what the Second Amendment actually says:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

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What about the Indiana State Constitution that says:

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Originally Posted by Indiana State Constitution Article 1 Section 32

The people shall have a right to bear arms, for the defense of themselves and the State.

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Is your argument that I, as a citizen of the State of Indiana, can only own a gun for militia purposes? Or can I own one for personal protection?

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Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

Who said "guns are the cause of so many crimes"? Not me.. false argument F- (I have said that the ready availability of handguns allows even the laziest, and stupidest, meth-ed out or drunken fool or paranoid civilian or the memeber of the Gang in Blue to rapidly escalate a situation to deadly levels....

Just today in my city a totem pole was raised in memorium to an old local woodcarver---who like me was somewhat deaf---who was murdered by some 27 year old punk who decided in about 7 seconds from when jumped out of his car and shouted 3 times in 3 second STOP, that this old guy facing away needed to die and in cold blood shot (5 or 6 shots) the guy down...The Police oversight Committee said it was a bad shooting. And, of course, the cop was allowed to resign..)
Too rapid escalation to fatal levels...


Correlation does not imply causation... another false argument. F-

It could just as likely be rising global temperature and decreasing number of pirates worldwide since the 1600s.
http://montaraventures.com/pix/piratestats.jpg
Oh wait, that was the poof the the FSM was the creator of the Universe.

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I was simply citing statistics concerning the point I made, that you then added the relationship information to. As for the correlation/causation, once again I agree. Crime rates were on the decline before most of these gun laws changed. But as such it seems to indicate that the issue was not one of guns, but influenced by other factors.

As for the cop shooting an innocent, this happens all too often. I personally think that if laws are stricter concerning crimes against cops than the inverse should apply. It is a double standard that punishes people to a greater degree for many actions against a cop, but when a cop does something wrong they are less accountable. This should IMO also apply to crimes much less severe than shooting someone, such as traffic violations.