Government is evil...

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Originally Posted by chuck34

I, and anyone other than an athiest, would say God granted us the right to life. But if you are really dead set on not believing in that, how about once man developed a consious mind?
Only in your mind or dogma.



There has never been a right to kill. That interferes with someone else's right to Life. Thus the necessity for governments and laws, to protect your rights, and provide consequences to those who violate them. As such governments do not bestow or deny rights, they simply act as an arbitor when disputes arise.

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Wrong, go into the Bible where laws are given; one has the right, or legal authority, to kill a night intruder, no questions asked, but does not have the right to kill a day intruder without reason.

These are defined under the law, God created. NO pre-existing God given right.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Wow, my school failed me as a youth. Good grounding for your arguments, personal insults, always gets you far.

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Your rhetoric has failed you, so you had better blame someone as everything so far has said you are simply wrong.

OK so I will not blame your schooling and say you are wrong and are too stubborn to admit it, regardless of writings that prove you wrong.

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Originally Posted by Bolton Midnight

How did this happen, 1 minute no humans, the next, pow humans all over the planet?

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That is not the point of the discussion at the moment. Whether God created or man is an accident, does not matter. What does matter is why rights exist and what authority they have to exist.

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

That is not the point of the discussion at the moment. Whether God created or man is an accident, does not matter. What does matter is why rights exist and what authority they have to exist.

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Original Post didn't say that.

Just wondering why Bumdell thinks God doesn't exist, surely he has a rational and believable reason to think that way. Or is he just trying to be controversial and hip by claiming to be an atheist?

How did we all come about?

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Rights, any rights, come from the legal system one lives under, period. (I said governments have used an item, that does not exist, as the reason, or excuse, to exercise their authority to grant LEGAL rights.)

Show me any other source.

If you are going to use the term "god given" show me in the Bible where these are given.
"God given" is a talking point used long before that term was common.

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Paul is at pains to point out in Romans 7 that the law doesn't create sin but merely serves to point out where it exists; this is also reemphasised in Galatians 3:24. The word "dikaiothomen" is an Aorist Passive Greek verb which is to say that it points out a thing existing always in the perfect sense. That means that the thing (in this case the law) always existed before it was codified. The law ALWAYS existed.

A "right" at law doesn't necessarily have to be spelled out in the positive sense. A right can also be shown in preventing the negative.

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

The laws in the Bible, are the worst thing to use as a legal reason for rights, of any source.

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Well if that's your attitude, then I'm sorry but as an ambassador for your faith (if presumably you have any) then this is a rubbish attitude to have. One one hand you demand proof from the bible but on the other refuse to accept it as proof. What's it to be?

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Originally Posted by chuck34

There has never been a right to kill. That interferes with someone else's right to Life. Thus the necessity for governments and laws, to protect your rights, and provide consequences to those who violate them. As such governments do not bestow or deny rights, they simply act as an arbitor when disputes arise.

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I think that Chuck's statement is most excellent. :up:

Whether you do or don't believe in the existance of God (that is a separate and distinct debate) the point is that people's rights extend from their inherent dignity as human beings.
The writers of the Declaration of Independence thought it was self-evident that people's rights are inalienable, the writers of the UDHR also thought that it was inherent that people's rights are inalienable.
People have fought wars in order to protect their rights. The suggestion that they only arise because of the operation of law is (and I use Mr Riebe's favourite word here) asinine.

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Originally Posted by Bolton Midnight

Just wondering why Bumdell thinks God doesn't exist, surely he has a rational and believable reason to think that way.

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I think he is might have the same reasoning as to why I don't believe in Father Christmas.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Paul is at pains to point out in Romans 7 that the law doesn't create sin but merely serves to point out where it exists; this is also reemphasised in Galatians 3:24. The word "dikaiothomen" is an Aorist Passive Greek verb which is to say that it points out a thing existing always in the perfect sense. That means that the thing (in this case the law) always existed before it was codified. The law ALWAYS existed.

A "right" at law doesn't necessarily have to be spelled out in the positive sense. A right can also be shown in preventing the negative. Give me the legal system, (a binding one not make believe wannabe) that sets legal rights by that dogma

Well if that's your attitude, then I'm sorry but as an ambassador for your faith (if presumably you have any) then this is a rubbish attitude to have. One one hand you demand proof from the bible but on the other refuse to accept it as proof. What's it to be?
Jesus came to give man salvation, not legal rights under any system. You are trying to reduce Jesus sacrifice to some legal beagles talking points. Give the the absolute statement in the Bible that gives rights. Failure to do so makes your rhetoric some more want it to be so--baseless rhetoric.
In the Bible the word of God, said what it meant and meant what it said, it was not to be interpreted to suit some men's dogma. The doing of such is why we have a myriead of "Christian" dogmas.

I think that Chuck's statement is most excellent. :up: It is still in reality so much man-made bs.

Whether you do or don't believe in the existance of God (that is a separate and distinct debate) the point is that people's rights extend from their inherent dignity as human beings.
The writers of the Declaration of Independence thought it was self-evident that people's rights are inalienable, the writers of the UDHR also thought that it was inherent that people's rights are inalienable.
People have fought wars in order to protect their rights. The suggestion that they only arise because of the operation of law is (and I use Mr Riebe's favourite word here) asinine.

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I do not care what they used to form their opinions. Opinions are all they are, but fortunately for us in the U.S. they used them to form our Constitution.
The fact they gave us legal rights, does not change the fact there is no such thing, in writing, such as God given rights.

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

I think he is might have the same reasoning as to why I don't believe in Father Christmas.

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What that all the humans were made in China like the toys by (oh hang on can't be as of course I was going to say humans but they didn't exist).

Santa, Tooth Fairy etc are fairly easy to explain away, even Bumdell could manage that, but if say God doesn't exist then how did we as a species turn up? Can't be evolution as there aren't any of our earlier versions being found.

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Give me the legal system, (a binding one not make believe wannabe) that sets legal rights by that dogma.

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The one that existed before the creation of the world.

Genesis 4:8-10 - How could God judge Cain if the law as you suggest didn't yet exist?
Genesis 39:7-9 - How did Joesph know adultery was against the law if the law as you suggest didn't yet exist?

Remember, the law wasn't given until Exodus 20.

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Jesus came to give man salvation, not legal rights under any system. You are trying to reduce Jesus sacrifice to some legal beagles talking points. Give the the absolute statement in the Bible that give rights. Failure to do so makes your rhetoric some more want it to be so--baseless rhetoric.

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Salvation has nothing whatsoever to do either giving or negating rights. Christ's death and resurrection is to do with payment for violating the law; that law existed before the creation of the world. How much of the law do to you wish me to quote? All of it?

A right is a legal or ethical entitlement. A written law can either express an entitlement positively, or negatively by prohibiting an action. Why would the law need to be written at all unless there was a right which needed protection?

Baseless rhetoric? Hardly. I do notice though that you have failed to cite anything to show your opinions.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

The one that existed before the creation of the world.

Genesis 4:8-10 - How could God judge Cain if the law as you suggest didn't yet exist?
Genesis 39:7-9 - How did Joesph know adultery was against the law if the law as you suggest didn't yet exist?

Remember, the law wasn't given until Exodus 20.



Salvation has nothing whatsoever to do either giving or negating rights. Christ's death and resurrection is to do with payment for violating the law; that law existed before the creation of the world. How much of the law do to you wish me to quote? All of it?

A right is a legal or ethical entitlement. A written law can either express an entitlement positively, or negatively by prohibiting an action. Why would the law need to be written at all unless there was a right which needed protection?

Baseless rhetoric? Hardly. I do notice though that you have failed to cite anything to show your opinions.

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We know, next to NOTHING of all that transpired between Adam and Eve, and the first murder. People, act as if the Bible were speaking of weeks or months not tens of tens of decades.
The Bible gives the laws we know of, yet before those laws, when Cain killed Able, Cain feared not God, but what other people were going to do to him.
Crying "God given rights" is really is as much a sin, as it is putting words into God's mouth, as Job committed and was castigated for.
To use the Bible verses you are to prove God gave something, is taking the Bible out of context to prove a point the verses in the Bible are not addressing.

If one is of the faith, although depending on which dogma one follows, one believes as is written in Ecclesiates- "Nothing is new under the sun." (Satan was cast out of heaven with his angels for committing crimes against God. Laws existed long before the creation, or rebuilding, of the earth as we now know it. One right God gave man, was the right to condemn him/her self to hell if so chosen. Even God cannot revoke that from anyone.
At the same time God does not have the right to sin, ever.)

That still doe not say that God gives anyone or thing any rights beyond those bestowed by the powers they live under.

Here is the only definition of rights that has any bearing on persons as these are, or can be defended by legal process:


RIGHTS
In an abstract sense, justice, ethical correctness, or harmony with the rules of law or the principles of morals. In a concrete legal sense, a power, privilege, demand, or claim possessed by a particular person by virtue of law.

Each legal right that an individual possesses relates to a corresponding legal duty imposed on another. For example, when a person owns a home and property, he has the right to possess and enjoy it free from the interference of others, who are under a corresponding duty not to interfere with the owner's rights by trespassing on the property or breaking into the home.

In Constitutional Law, rights are classified as natural, civil, and political. Natural rights are those that are believed to grow out of the nature of the individual human being and depend on her personality, such as the rights to life, liberty, privacy, and the pursuit of happiness.

Civil Rights are those that belong to every citizen of the state, and are not connected with the organization or administration of government. They include the rights of property, marriage, protection by law, freedom to contract, trial by jury, and the like. These rights are capable of being enforced or redressed in a civil action in a court.

Political rights entail the power to participate directly or indirectly in the establishment or administration of government, such as the right of citizenship, the right to vote, and the right to hold public office.