Should f1 run coupes?

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Originally Posted by Daniel

But that's imaterial. The point of enclosing the wheels in F1 is to stop 1 wheel hitting another and sending one of the cars flying. You only need look at the Webber v Kovalainen incident to see how bad wheel on wheel contact can be. Whilst I realise that having his front wing knocked off was part of the problem, it was the wheel on wheel contact that sent the car flying.

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YouTube - ‪Christian Fittipaldi way through checkered flag‬‏
YouTube - ‪Patrese hits Berger in Portugal 92‬‏
YouTube - ‪Brundle crashes 1996‬‏
YouTube - ‪Villeneuve Crash Melbourne 2001‬‏
YouTube - ‪Webber crash Valencia 2010‬‏

People don't want proof of danger, they'd rather wait until people die. Maybe it will require this:
YouTube - ‪Worst Crash Ever - 24 Hours of Le Mans - 1955 (HD)‬‏

It took the death of Alberto Ascari to make the lawmakers think about the use of seat belts and redsigning that corner at Monaco.
When François Cevert died, his mate Jackie Stewart thought it worthwhile to champion the idea of drivers safety.
HANS devices were developed in the mid-1980s but it too the deaths of Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna to look at the concept, and the idea wasn't really brought hom until Dale Earndhart Sr. died.

Maybe it will take the death of either a lot of spectators to make real the idea that an open-wheeler is inherently dangerous and stupid.

I personally also like the idea of enclosing the driver because that space in the event of fire can be sealed off from the rest of the car. I still remember Berger's crash at Imola in 1989.
YouTube - ‪Berger F1 Ferrari accident 1989‬‏
The risk of fire on board a racing car should be taken as seriously as on board a submarine. A lot of other motorsports have on board fire extinguishers, yet F1 cars don't seem to.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

So we should never learn from mistakes?

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They have and they do, continuously.

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Originally Posted by barryfullalove

None whatsoever. But then you were discussing the change from open wheel to couple, I was on about the definition of what makes an F1 car an F1 car. Mark wrote "I refer the honourable gentleman to the FIA Technical Regulations re: Formula 1 cars. If it's not in there it's not an F1 car.". If that's how we're playing it then I was asking if any infringement of those rules would mean that the car would cease to be classified as a Formula One car.

It was just a comment made by standing back from the face of the argument, if an F1 car is solely defined by the FIA rules then shirley it can no longer be an F1 car if it doesn't fit those rules?

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Don't call me Shirley.....

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Originally Posted by Rollo

YouTube - ‪Christian Fittipaldi way through checkered flag‬‏
YouTube - ‪Patrese hits Berger in Portugal 92‬‏
YouTube - ‪Brundle crashes 1996‬‏
YouTube - ‪Villeneuve Crash Melbourne 2001‬‏
YouTube - ‪Webber crash Valencia 2010‬‏

People don't want proof of danger, they'd rather wait until people die. Maybe it will require this:
YouTube - ‪Worst Crash Ever - 24 Hours of Le Mans - 1955 (HD)‬‏

It took the death of Alberto Ascari to make the lawmakers think about the use of seat belts and redsigning that corner at Monaco.
When François Cevert died, his mate Jackie Stewart thought it worthwhile to champion the idea of drivers safety.
HANS devices were developed in the mid-1980s but it too the deaths of Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna to look at the concept, and the idea wasn't really brought hom until Dale Earndhart Sr. died.

Maybe it will take the death of either a lot of spectators to make real the idea that an open-wheeler is inherently dangerous and stupid.

I personally also like the idea of enclosing the driver because that space in the event of fire can be sealed off from the rest of the car. I still remember Berger's crash at Imola in 1989.
YouTube - ‪Berger F1 Ferrari accident 1989‬‏
The risk of fire on board a racing car should be taken as seriously as on board a submarine. A lot of other motorsports have on board fire extinguishers, yet F1 cars don't seem to.

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That Berger crash is quite literally the first thing I can remember about F1. Your videos illustrate the problem with open wheeled race cars perfectly :up:

It's a pity that Shirley G Wilko doesn't understand :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rollo

YouTube - ‪Christian Fittipaldi way through checkered flag‬‏
YouTube - ‪Patrese hits Berger in Portugal 92‬‏
YouTube - ‪Brundle crashes 1996‬‏
YouTube - ‪Villeneuve Crash Melbourne 2001‬‏
YouTube - ‪Webber crash Valencia 2010‬‏

People don't want proof of danger, they'd rather wait until people die. Maybe it will require this:
YouTube - ‪Worst Crash Ever - 24 Hours of Le Mans - 1955 (HD)‬‏

It took the death of Alberto Ascari to make the lawmakers think about the use of seat belts and redsigning that corner at Monaco.
When François Cevert died, his mate Jackie Stewart thought it worthwhile to champion the idea of drivers safety.
HANS devices were developed in the mid-1980s but it too the deaths of Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna to look at the concept, and the idea wasn't really brought hom until Dale Earndhart Sr. died.

Maybe it will take the death of either a lot of spectators to make real the idea that an open-wheeler is inherently dangerous and stupid.

I personally also like the idea of enclosing the driver because that space in the event of fire can be sealed off from the rest of the car. I still remember Berger's crash at Imola in 1989.
YouTube - ‪Berger F1 Ferrari accident 1989‬‏
The risk of fire on board a racing car should be taken as seriously as on board a submarine. A lot of other motorsports have on board fire extinguishers, yet F1 cars don't seem to.

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IIRC it was a closed wheel racecar that killed the spectators at Le Mans in 1955. If a car gets airbourne (remenber the closed wheel, closed cockpit Mercedes Le Mans cars?) it will not automatically avoid the crowds just because it has a cover over the cockpit and the wheels are covered.

Planes fall out the sky, but still we use them - thousands of journeys every day.....

As to extinguishers, they do and have had them in F1 for quite some years now, along with medical air to the helmet to create positive pressure in the event of a fire.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daniel

That Berger crash is quite literally the first thing I can remember about F1. Your videos illustrate the problem with open wheeled race cars perfectly :up:

It's a pity that Shirley G Wilko doesn't understand :p

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In what way would enclosing Berger's wheels have prevented his front wing from failing exactly? One of the lessons learned from that crash was banning the refridgeration of fuel before the race.....

Taking McNish's crash as an example, it could very easily have rolled onto the marshalls behind the barriers and caused death, the fact that it did not had nowt to do with the cockpit cover or enclosed wheels.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Planes fall out the sky, but still we use them - thousands of journeys every day.....

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Yes, and there are also black box recorders in the event of something going awry so that investigators can learn from the incidents and improve them.
The story of the de Havilland Comet is interesting in this respect. When those started falling out of the sky, the designers didn't simply glibly sit by and say "flying is dangerous, it's too bad" did they?

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

IIRC it was a closed wheel racecar that killed the spectators at Le Mans in 1955. If a car gets airbourne (remenber the closed wheel, closed cockpit Mercedes Le Mans cars?) it will not automatically avoid the crowds just because it has a cover over the cockpit and the wheels are covered.

Planes fall out the sky, but still we use them - thousands of journeys every day.....

As to extinguishers, they do and have had them in F1 for quite some years now, along with medical air to the helmet to create positive pressure in the event of a fire.

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Wilko, you're missing the point. Rollo's point is that it will take a huge accident to bring the point home of how dangerous interlocking wheels is.

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Needless to say, Dario and a couple of huge flips and still racing in Indycar.

The biggest danger in bike racing is being flung off the bike so does that mean bike racing, IOM TT, etc; should be banned?

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

In what way would enclosing Berger's wheels have prevented his front wing from failing exactly? One of the lessons learned from that crash was banning the refridgeration of fuel before the race.....

Taking McNish's crash as an example, it could very easily have rolled onto the marshalls behind the barriers and caused death, the fact that it did not had nowt to do with the cockpit cover or enclosed wheels.

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You're picking out facts which have little to do with the argument. The point is that if those two accidents had happened with F1 cars then the sum total of injuries wouldn't have been a cut arm, some bruises and a photographer with a broken lens.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rollo

YouTube - ‪Christian Fittipaldi way through checkered flag‬‏
YouTube - ‪Patrese hits Berger in Portugal 92‬‏
YouTube - ‪Brundle crashes 1996‬‏
YouTube - ‪Villeneuve Crash Melbourne 2001‬‏
YouTube - ‪Webber crash Valencia 2010‬‏

People don't want proof of danger, they'd rather wait until people die. Maybe it will require this:
YouTube - ‪Worst Crash Ever - 24 Hours of Le Mans - 1955 (HD)‬‏

It took the death of Alberto Ascari to make the lawmakers think about the use of seat belts and redsigning that corner at Monaco.
When François Cevert died, his mate Jackie Stewart thought it worthwhile to champion the idea of drivers safety.
HANS devices were developed in the mid-1980s but it too the deaths of Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna to look at the concept, and the idea wasn't really brought hom until Dale Earndhart Sr. died.

Maybe it will take the death of either a lot of spectators to make real the idea that an open-wheeler is inherently dangerous and stupid.

I personally also like the idea of enclosing the driver because that space in the event of fire can be sealed off from the rest of the car. I still remember Berger's crash at Imola in 1989.
YouTube - ‪Berger F1 Ferrari accident 1989‬‏
The risk of fire on board a racing car should be taken as seriously as on board a submarine. A lot of other motorsports have on board fire extinguishers, yet F1 cars don't seem to.

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There are a lot of stupid things in the world but I think we've got more serious problems to worry about than drivers sitting inside carbon fibre cars with very good helmets, safe circuits and excellent medical team standing by all the time. A bigger worry is sitting in your own passenger car which is still made of age old materials such as sheet metal and crash tested only at about 60km/h. Sure there is danger in F1 but should we ban something that is safer than your normal shopping trip or a ride to work?