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Whoa, no one said that any of those drivers 'suck". They are all good. However, Gordon has 82 wins, JJ has 52 wins and Tony has 37. When a drivers career is over they will be judged, for the most part, on the number of wins and number of championships they have. Not how much potential they had. :)
True, i have no quibble with that per se....My real fav has 7 rings and 76+ cup trophy's (I say 76 plus because I lost count of all the trophies that don't count (Shootouts, All-Stars, twin-125's and the like).Quote:
Originally Posted by muggle not
I guess all this chase bs has made me real sensitive over the years because I keep hearing how JJ is probably the GOAT because he has won 4 in a row,(and no, you have never said that to the best of my knowledge) yet he has never had to put together a full season like Gordon, Waltrip, Yarbrough Earnhardt and Petty have and all they were able to do was back to back (ok Cale did the three-peat).
I give props where props are due and no matter what points system one used last year, JJ won, hands down....Chase, Non -Chase, Current F1, Old F1. He got it done...but 4 in a row....puh-lease...
Kyle Busch is not the best ever. Neither is Harvick. But the two of them are among the most talented drivers I have had the pleasure to watch carve up traffic since the 90's for sure. Big difference between talent, and what one is able to do with it, what the circumstances of the day do to allow that talent to come thru is a lot to do with it.
Seems like you're changing your story a bit mugs...now you say that number of wins DOES matter? Come on, at least be consistent in your point. First it was a measure by championships...now by championships and wins?Quote:
Originally Posted by muggle not
So the person you seem to be putting down is Kyle...now he doesn't win enough? Over the past 2 years plus he's gotta be one of the leaders in number of W's...I don't know the numbers, I'm just saying. The only guy that I can think of that wins as often as him is JJ and he with Chad is a freak of nature. So all that "potential" must be worth something halfway into year 6 of his cup career huh?
50 :eek: total wins in the last 2.5 years, 14 of those in the Cup Series, vs 19 for JJ, all in the Cup SeriesQuote:
Originally Posted by TURN3
sorry but Truck and Nationwide stats dont count, Nascar needed to after Harvick won in 06 to not allow any driver with 1 year of Nascar cup experience to be allowed more than 15 races per season in the lower ranks.
the Trucks and Nationwide series is there for up and coming talent, not for Cup drivers stealing time from kids trying to make it into Nascar.
I guess this will always be the one thing that you and I will always fundamentally disagree. I belive that without Harvick, Edwards, Busch, and now Hamlin, Logano and Keselowski that the Nationwide series will just die a slow death. The truck series would survive, in my view, because it is substantially different from the Cup Series....Cup is Cars, Camping World Trucks are, well.....trucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by harvick#1
I will agree with you on one premise. It may have been better if the cup drivers never went down that slippery slope to start with, and Harvick was the trail blazer that the other drivers followed to see if was feasible for them to even attempt to run for dual championships in the first place. When he won the 2001 Nationwide Championship at the same time he had one of the most successful rookie years ever in the cup series, well then it was Katie bar the door.
But now that we are where we are, so to speak, alot of fans, and just as importantly, potential sponsors and the networks have come to expect a certain level of competition in the Nationwide Series, and for at least a few Cup drivers to attempt the Championship, and absent that, the network attention and sponsor money will dry up.
That's non-sense. Those series were never designed to be "stepping stones".Quote:
Originally Posted by harvick#1
Yes, I agree with Lee Roy, those series weren't designed as stepping stones or ladder series. I'm not an extreme NASCAR history buff but I believe I remember the likes of Dale Sr., Richard Petty, and Mark Martin doing lots and lots of racing in then Busch series. Sorry Harv, you're usually pretty dead on but this topic you're off a bit. We can't let hatred toward a driver spray red mist on the facts and Kyle has the facts. This isn't a career 1 win driver without a clue how to perform at the professional level here, cough cough!Quote:
Originally Posted by harvick#1
Bottom line, Nationwide or Truck series wins/championships do not count as wins/championships in the Cup Series.
Remember, Tim Richmond was a great driver with great talent and potential but he doesn't compare to say, Dale, SR. since Tim's win total and lack of Championship was lacking for his career.
back in the day no, but now, yes it was/is, how many guys drove straight into the Cup series????? not many, they all raced in the Busch/Nationwide series for a few years before coming up, Jeff Gordon didnt jump into Cup right away, nor did Tony Stewart, or Mark Martin, Kevin Harvick, Dale Earnhardt Jr., and even Kyle Busch. Kurt Busch, Carl Edwards, and Greg Biffle all started their years with Roush in the Trucks before moving up to the big time. Logano, was he in Cup right when he started? no he was in ARCA and Nationwide.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Roy
dont be tellin me that the Trucks or Nationwide is not a "stepping stone", the series just got overrun, or else we'd be talking about whos the gonna win the title if Allgier could hold his nearly 400 point lead over the next leading NWS runner. instead we have drivers that shouldn't be in AAA anymore.
thats like Alex Ovechkin or Crosby going back to the AHL or OHL, or Lebron James playing in the CBA. the Trucks are still ok since Harvick and Busch dont make enough appearances to get involved in the championship, but in the NWS, its just a joke