Was Lewis passing Heikki legal?

Printable View

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

25th July 2008, 16:24
PolePosition_1

Quote:

Originally Posted by mstillhere

I love to see the McLAren fans swinging and flip flopping one way and the other too as long as it is convenient for you. All your moralistic and ethical threads about how important it is for a driver to pass his own team mate out of pure sportmanship and fairness went strait into the garbage can. I have no idea how you can actually sit down at your computer and seroiusly write your hypocritical comments TOTALLY forgetting that just a couple of years ago you were just stating the opposite. I am frankly appaled. I have shown my ability, in one of my most recent threads - Ferrrai's stupidity- to call things for what they are. If Ferrrari does something stupid, I have no problem in critizing it. It they cheated I am the first denouncing my team and their wrong doing. Here, except for a couple of guys, I see a fanatical defence of the silver (only recently) bullets about their stealing, their bending of the rules (including Heikki and his refueling issue). Is it so hard for you guys TO HAVE A A STANDARD AND STICK TO IT? As far as your crediblity goes, you really loosing lots of it.
PS Here you find what RD said about it. It's just incredible the nerve he has. http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headline...21102741.shtml

Whats wrong with what RD said? He said no team orders were used, Heikki used common sense. He just saying what happened.

Whats your opinion on Jerez 97?
25th July 2008, 16:30
PolePosition_1

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

There was only one win taken away from Rubens, and he got at least one gifted to him by MS later on. So let's not exaggerate.

How often did MS team-mates move over for points and wins? Or how many times did he just take his team-mates car for no good reason. He had spare car at all races. His team-mates strategies were based around MS. The car was designed around his driving style. The whole team was around MS, with the other driver merely being part of the team to help MS win.

I'm not being funny, but never in recent F1 times have we seen a situation like this. And I don't think we ever will.
25th July 2008, 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

How often did MS team-mates move over for points and wins?

Malaysia 1999. One more time than Hakkinen, for example, ever did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

Or how many times did he just take his team-mates car for no good reason.

No good reason? Being the Number 1 in the team & wanting to win is not a good reason? Seems perfectly acceptable to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

His team-mates strategies were based around MS. The car was designed around his driving style. The whole team was around MS, with the other driver merely being part of the team to help MS win.

Well, that's because Ferrari had a distinct policy of basing their championship hopes around the one man who they knew could deliver.

Not taking advantage of that situation would have been professionally reckless.
26th July 2008, 03:42
markabilly

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

I said ultimately ioan. :rolleyes:
Lewis went on to pass both Junior and Massa, while Kovi never looked like closing the gap to them.

The way I saw it, Kovi may have been able to hold Lewis up for, at the most, a couple of laps but Lewis would have passed him with no more difficulty than the way he passed Junior and Massa.

Of course you might have seen things differently.

Quite correct; however, RD was saying again, right before this race that it was team equality, no team orders,..yyayadda....if you do want a link, then go check out autosport.....

Before the season began Rd made it clear that Lewis was number one, then later still tries to say, team equality....now RD is praising HK for being quite a competitor :eek:
26th July 2008, 07:00
grantb4

I don't mind the letting-the-teammate-pass thing, but I hate it when the trailing driver drives a little slower to slow the pack down and let the leader get way ahead.
26th July 2008, 16:10
Roamy

I voted yes because there is no way to police them. I recall mika salo had is only chance to win a F1 race scuttled by team orders. If I were Mika I would have just kept the pedal to the metal. But Massa and RB have made a lot of Dinero bending over!!
27th July 2008, 00:50
Tumbo

and in the same vein Irvine had his chance at the WDC scuttled by the team losing a wheel. End of the day team-orders are going to be there, the important thing is that they are done in such a way that they don't cause embarrasment - Schumi/Barrichello only became a serious issue because of the way in which it was done, there are times when a second driver should scoot over if they are not going to be able to properly compete and are going to merely hold up a faster team-mate; having said that if a driver is in first and slower than his team-mate it's questionable whether he should move aside..............team is getting maximum manufacturer/team points so i'd be arguing that it is a case of show your greater speed and get past urself
27th July 2008, 08:17
Jag_Warrior

Quote:

Originally Posted by mstillhere

The opposite is also true. Do you have any proof they did not do it? Because it sure looks like they did. Anyway just remeber to stick to you story when the opposite will happen.

No, I don't have any proof that McLaren did not use team orders. But I'm not the one seeing black helicopters. In my neck of the woods, when making a charge, it's up to the accuser/prosecution to prove guilt. The accused doesn't have to prove innocence or anything else. And without proof, why would the FIA or the media or anyone else be wound up? Later in this thread, you go on to say: "I mean, we all know that that was team order. Heikki was told to move over and let Lewis get by and he did. The media has not said anything about it."

I'll ask again, what is it that all of us know? And how do you know this? Maybe you have some pals at News of the World who would back you on this. But no, with no more proof than you seem to have, what (responsible) media outlet would print your conspiracy theory as fact? Heikki clearly let Lewis by. But you don't know whether it was because someone from McLaren told him to or if he did it on his own. He was going to get by Heikki anyway, so why hold the guy up?! What would be gained?

This isn't the IRL. Most drivers in F1 do have enough "big picture racing sense" to do the smart thing, without having to be told to do so by their teams.
27th July 2008, 14:01
mstillhere

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior

No, I don't have any proof that McLaren did not use team orders. But I'm not the one seeing black helicopters. In my neck of the woods, when making a charge, it's up to the accuser/prosecution to prove guilt. The accused doesn't have to prove innocence or anything else. And without proof, why would the FIA or the media or anyone else be wound up? Later in this thread, you go on to say: "I mean, we all know that that was team order. Heikki was told to move over and let Lewis get by and he did. The media has not said anything about it."

I'll ask again, what is it that all of us know? And how do you know this? Maybe you have some pals at News of the World who would back you on this. But no, with no more proof than you seem to have, what (responsible) media outlet would print your conspiracy theory as fact? Heikki clearly let Lewis by. But you don't know whether it was because someone from McLaren told him to or if he did it on his own. He was going to get by Heikki anyway, so why hold the guy up?! What would be gained?

This isn't the IRL. Most drivers in F1 do have enough "big picture racing sense" to do the smart thing, without having to be told to do so by their teams.

That McLaren are desperate and would do anything to win is proven by what they did last year. I am sure we can agree on that. That McLaren specifically said to Kova: "Hey Kova let Lewis get by now otherwise no refuel for you" is also not proven. However, that McLAren has said something in that vein: "Hey Kova, guess what? Lewis is way faster than you and.....he is right behind you" RD himself and his engineers said that that happened. Actually from one of their interviews it transpires that Kova was not too happy about that "guess what" message. Now it's a matter for you to connect the dots. If you want to of course. As far as I am concerned we don't get to establish the rules. The rules are rules. And it does not matter if Lewis is faster, if it's the very last lap, and so on. But you know..let me do this...I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU. How's that? Just remember though, since what goes around comes around, don't flip flop when it's going to be Ferrari doing the same thing, ok? Although Although for some people what Ferrari does is always not right because....hum.....whatever,,,,right.....
PS Hey, you heard? Hamilton's car is being inspected by the FIA. Coincidence?
27th July 2008, 16:35
Jag_Warrior

Quote:

Originally Posted by mstillhere

That McLaren are desperate and would do anything to win is proven by what they did last year. I am sure we can agree on that. That McLaren specifically said to Kova: "Hey Kova let Lewis get by now otherwise no refuel for you" is also not proven. However, that McLAren has said something in that vein: "Hey Kova, guess what? Lewis is way faster than you and.....he is right behind you" RD himself and his engineers said that that happened. Actually from one of their interviews it transpires that Kova was not too happy about that "guess what" message. Now it's a matter for you to connect the dots. If you want to of course. As far as I am concerned we don't get to establish the rules. The rules are rules. And it does not matter if Lewis is faster, if it's the very last lap, and so on. But you know..let me do this...I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU. How's that? Just remember though, since what goes around comes around, don't flip flop when it's going to be Ferrari doing the same thing, ok? Although Although for some people what Ferrari does is always not right because....hum.....whatever,,,,right.....
PS Hey, you heard? Hamilton's car is being inspected by the FIA. Coincidence?

Quote:

"The only thing we do is advise our drivers of the respective pace of the other driver," he said. "They ultimately call it.

"Lewis was nearly one second quicker and when he was told Lewis was quicker he just let him past. It was a tremendous sporting gesture," Dennis added. Referring to Kovalainen, he continued: "He knew that was the only way because the longer he would have held up Lewis the more difficult it would have been for him to have regained the lead. It's what being in a racing team is about. "True team-mates do these things because that's the way they are," said Ron Dennis.

When I give orders, I am very clear about what I expect to happen and when. The problem here is that some fans don't seem to know the difference between an order and at best, a vague implication.

Whether it's McLaren, Ferrari or BMW, if one of the team drivers has shown the field his backside all day, and the other is not on his pace, I would expect the lead driver to NOT make it a time consuming exercise for the faster car to get past him. No matter the team, I don't have a problem with that.

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page