Max Mosley opens a can of worms.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

The fact that the security force of the nation has wives who sell photos of people in compromising positions to tabloids shows this may be a tactic used by the force.

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It may be a tactic they use but does it follow that MI5, via one of their agents, employed the wife of that agent to create this particular situation, film it, and sell the film to the NOTW?

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

A "sting" is entrapment . It's illegal .

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A definition of entrapment is "the luring by a law-enforcement agent of a person into committing a crime". Was Max lured into committing a crime in this way?

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Max said very quickly after the release , that MI5 had told him he was being watched

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Max said:

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"From information provided to me by an impeccable high-level source close to the UK police and security services, I understand that over the last two weeks or so, a covert investigation of my private life and background has been undertaken by a group specialising in such things."

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Given that the NOTW regularly carry these kind of exposés could we assume that they are the group Max refers to?

Having said all of that the issue is not so much the NOTW story as the damage done to the office of the FIA President and the FIA itself, and the continuing impact that is having on the ability of the FIA President to do his job.

I don't believe Max can continue as FIA President while fighting the NOTW, and anyone else he holds responsible, through the courts. He may (rightly IMHO) feel that his private life should be his own affair, but thanks to the NOTW it no longer is, and he should defend his right to privacy as a private citizen.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

but does it follow that MI5, via one of their agents, employed the wife of that agent to create this particular situation, film it, and sell the film to the NOTW?

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Might be that MI5 is bit strapped for cash. :D
Next month's scoop on The Sun: "satellite photos of Emma thompson in a beach wearing bikinis"

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

I will answer your question , even though you duck mine because you don't feel it's worth wasting your valuable time .

MI5 had an agent working surveillance , and his wife , a prostitute , took pictures of a private citizen and sold them to a rag .
This looked bad enough , that the agent's employment was terminated .

It is in no doubt that Max is not universally loved , and speculation has many on the suspect list .
That Ron Dennis was on that list is no surprise .
There is your link to F1 , if you needed more than Max himself . If it wasn't Ron , who was it ?

The fact that the security force of the nation has wives who sell photos of people in compromising positions to tabloids shows this may be a tactic used by the force .
A "sting" is entrapment . It's illegal .
Has anyone else been stung in this way ?

It remains to be seen , where the money originated , that paid for the surveillance that was said to be in place for 2 months before the pictures were released . Max said very quickly after the release , that MI5 had told him he was being watched .
That they knew , and knew so quickly , should be enough to cause wonder as to whether the service was involved . Add that a member had direct involvement through his wife , brings it to be obvious that questions would arise .

Who paid for that 2 months of watching Max ?
Why is it taking so long to find this out ?

I've asked this from the start .

It wasn't us , isn't enough . I want to know who it was .

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Er... the newspaper, just as in the vast majority of other tabloid stings?

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Given that the NOTW regularly carry these kind of exposés could we assume that they are the group Max refers to?

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Exactly. The idea that he meant MI5 is fanciful, to me at least.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Having said all of that the issue is not so much the NOTW story as the damage done to the office of the FIA President and the FIA itself, and the continuing impact that is having on the ability of the FIA President to do his job.

I don't believe Max can continue as FIA President while fighting the NOTW, and anyone else he holds responsible, through the courts. He may (rightly IMHO) feel that his private life should be his own affair, but thanks to the NOTW it no longer is, and he should defend his right to privacy as a private citizen.

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Again, we come back to the question of whether it is morally right for someone to be forced out of their job for having a private life that is different to that of most people, and whether it being exposed makes it any more wrong than if this behaviour continued in private. It is a very difficult moral conundrum. In this case, the truth or otherwise of the 'Nazi' aspect is key. But I agree that he should go, if only for the comments he made afterwards towards the German car manufacturers.

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Originally Posted by janneppi

IMO not linking MI5 to anything yet.
Was the man fired(or moved to another job as psfan said) because
-his wife was working as prostitute and was an embaressement to MI5
-the man could be regonised as an MI5 agent and would not be able to work in that job
-he was part of a MI5 operation to get naughty pictures of Max Mosley and sell them to tabloids, but got caught.
First two sound helluva lot more plausable. ;)

How is ron Dennis linked to MI5? If it wasn't Ron, try some tabloid owned by The same guy who owns The Sunday Times, a paper whose writer has been sued by Mosley. A bit more plausable than Ron Dennis having MI5 do a sting on Mosley,if you ask me.

Now that's the first real indication of any involvement of MI5 to this case. Was MI5 doing the watching, or did they stuble into someone else watching Mosley. Latter would seem more plausable seeing it became a public matter. Perhaps the husband got suspicious of his wife's movement, followed her and notified his employer of what was going on.
I'd put my money rather on Rupert Murdoch that the British goverment.

No one who knows the real deal isn't willing to talk.

If MI5 wasn't the culprit and know's who it was, their first oblication isn't to tell it all to the media. :)

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Did that MI5 agent know that his wife was involved in a plan to discredit Max ?
You think it was likely Murdoch behind it .

Do you think the MI5 agent knew his wife was a hooker ?

Was the knowledge of the fact that she was a hooker not a product of the investigation itself ?

Would the fact that she was the wife of an MI5 agent not be of concern to the "agency" for which she worked ? Was she so good at her covert operation that she was keeping this information from both her husband and the clients ?

That doesn't sound so plausable either , does it ?

Of course , though , if her husband knew , and she was actually an operative herself , then the easy way to explain it would be to say he didn't know , and shift him out .
He's a surveillance man , but he didn't see it .
She sounds like a better spy than her husband .

The implication is that someone like a Rupert Murdoch , or anyone else for that matter , could have influence enough to make this happen .

I can't imagine , pulling off a stunt like this , for a one-sum payment , that she had a career in mind in the prostitution biz . In those circles , she would have a serious pay cheque coming in . That also points to a sting , set up by someone with influence .

Since the implications are so large , we may never hear much more about this , and you may be able to say it was all bunk .

But , I hope to hear a few of these questions answered by official channels .

By the way , PSfan stated he had heard that the man resigned and wasn't fired , rather than , as you stated , moved .
Resigned often means he was given the option , and , given that firing him might inply his involvement in the issue , does it not make sense that it is the case , in this case ?

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

It may be a tactic they use but does it follow that MI5, via one of their agents, employed the wife of that agent to create this particular situation, film it, and sell the film to the NOTW?

A definition of entrapment is "the luring by a law-enforcement agent of a person into committing a crime". Was Max lured into committing a crime in this way?

Max said:
Given that the NOTW regularly carry these kind of exposés could we assume that they are the group Max refers to?

Having said all of that the issue is not so much the NOTW story as the damage done to the office of the FIA President and the FIA itself, and the continuing impact that is having on the ability of the FIA President to do his job.

I don't believe Max can continue as FIA President while fighting the NOTW, and anyone else he holds responsible, through the courts. He may (rightly IMHO) feel that his private life should be his own affair, but thanks to the NOTW it no longer is, and he should defend his right to privacy as a private citizen.

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Is soliciting a prostitute a crime there ?
Perhaps not , as MI5 , in the denial , called it a sting .

You say tomato . I say tomato . Let's call the whole investigation off .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

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By the way , PSfan stated he had heard that the man resigned and wasn't fired , rather than , as you stated , moved .
Resigned often means he was given the option , and , given that firing him might inply his involvement in the issue , does it not make sense that it is the case , in this case ?

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Oh, it was resigned, I had read it as re-assigned and didn't look more closely.

One could also see his resignation being a case of being humiliated in front of your peers. I might have a hard time going to work if my wife was exposed as a prostitute. Altough I wouldn't rule out him being told to resign to stop embarassing MI5 any further.

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Originally Posted by janneppi

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Oh, it was resigned, I had read it as re-assigned and didn't look more closely.

One could also see his resignation being a case of being humiliated in front of your peers. I might have a hard time going to work if my wife was exposed as a prostitute. Altough I wouldn't rule out him being told to resign to stop embarassing MI5 any further.

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I work for myself , so nobody's going to fire me .
The man resigned , or was forced to resign . He did so as they investigated a case of invasion of privacy , in which his wife was personally involved .
They were forced to deny involvement in a "sting" .

It was characterized as such by MI5 , and information from that same organization said that the surveillance was on for 2 weeks(not months as I stated before) by a third party , a private surveillance firm .
The private firm was being watched by MI5 , and contained as employee , the wife of the agent .
We are asked to believe that the agent didn't know that his wife worked as a hooker , even though he worked in the same organization that was watching that firm .

Then , she gave up a great job , for a lump sum , selling her story and pictures to the media , thinking she'd get away without them finding out ?
If she was smart enough to fool MI5 , and the escort agency , how come she couldn't figure that one out ?

I'm not suggest that all of the MI5 is rotten . I am suggesting that men can be bought .

What if the guy was working together with his wife and their major income was setting up such ordered stings?!
The question is, who ordered the whole affair?

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Originally Posted by ioan

What if the guy was working together with his wife and their major income was setting up such ordered stings?!
The question is, who ordered the whole affair?

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I don't think there's any question that it was the News of the World. There is no reason for any intelligence service to do anything to ridicule Mosley. The same can't be said of the Murdoch press. But let's not forget that whoever ordered it, this sting was set up because whoever was behind it knew that Mosley would be a willing participant. How they knew that, who can say...