Rest assured the FIA already told McLaren on what basis they are accused. Otherwise how would they be supposed to defend themselves?Quote:
Originally Posted by Flat.tyres
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Rest assured the FIA already told McLaren on what basis they are accused. Otherwise how would they be supposed to defend themselves?Quote:
Originally Posted by Flat.tyres
link please.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
At the moment, Ron is making some pretty catagoric statements about this that suggest he firmly believes McLaren have no case to answer and is bloody dissapointed that these charges have been levelled. I dont have a link for this but it will come out soon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flat.tyres
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60741Quote:
"McLaren is extremely disappointed to note that it has been asked by the FIA to answer a charge of being in possession of certain documents and confidential information belonging to Ferrari.
Whilst McLaren wishes to continue its full co-operation with any investigation into this matter, it does wish to make it very clear that the documents and confidential information were only in the possession of one currently suspended employee on an unauthorised basis and no element of it has been used in relation to McLaren's Formula One cars."
So the charge against the team is "being in possession of certain documents and confidential information belonging to Ferrari".
sorry Arrows, I didn't realise this had been officially commented on.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Thanks
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60755Quote:
The Italian investigators looking into Nigel Stepney's activities at Ferrari are not expecting to reveal full details of what the mysterious white powder at the centre of the sabotage claims surrounding him until the start of next month.
You mean you believe that someone is brought in front of the court without him and his lawyers being informed what is it all about?Quote:
Originally Posted by Flat.tyres
As for Ron, what were you expecting him to do? Publicly acknowledge that they did something wrong? The guy can't even accept when his cars are slower than others on the track.
Quote:
Originally Posted by icsunonove
Uhh, I thought all the cars have the same software now.
from what Ive heard, there has not been full disclosure to Ron. I think this centres around this afadavit from Mike and what it contains. this is the smoking gun.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Ron is adamant that they have done nothing wrong and has basically put his word on this. the problem is that if he hasn't been told the truth, he's going to look like he's made a false statement.
as for Rons integrity, I don't think you will find anyone in the world of F1 that will cast aspersions on that. disgruntled fans from oposing teams but anyone who knows him will freely admit he is professional, driven, hard but firm and a man of integrity.
Can't wait till it all pans out and I get to plaster it all over the Hamilton wikipedia, like the british idiot editors like go on for paragraphs for schumacher doing the most silly things. (passing Damon "no talent" Hill during the parade lap, for instance).
you're quite sad really aren't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendersen
this is something that is affecting the sport of F1 and could lead to long term damage within F1 but you just want to gloat and score little points.
If McLaren were involved in this, then the FIA needs to take firm action against them but as with a lot of the rumours surrounding Ferrari, lets just hope this is unfounded.
Oh, please. You don't see this as great karma after years of accusing Ferrari of everything under the sun?Quote:
Originally Posted by Flat.tyres
Why bother? Will you be paid?? :p :Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendersen
:up: A point worth remembering while all of this rumbles on. Whatever the outcome this has already damaged this year's championships, largely because people are making assumptions based on speculation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flat.tyres
I suppose we're all guilty of that to some extent.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
the FACTS as reported lead us to assume there is a great deal going on along similar lines to what has been reported. I'm not sure of Nigels role in this as yet but Mike looks like he's buried up to the neck.
If I'm honest, I hoped that there was no substance to this but I see the FIA actually charging McLaren as a significant move forward and cant help but think that it's because of the information supplied by Mike.
Ron wont know what is in that affadavit because for legal reasons Mike would be excommunicated and this is so high profile that nobody would have had a little word in his shell-like. Mike, if he had any sense, would disclose everything and cover his own arse.
as they say in Star Wars, "I have a very bad feeling about this". Somehow, I see the walls closing in on McLaren and hope they haven't got their fingers caught in the cookie jar.
if they have, then I wont stop supporting them but will be bitterly dissapointed and expect the FIA to, quite rightly, throw the book at them.
Why do you care? You going to write my biography?Quote:
Originally Posted by Malllen
wise words from an ald hand here. I agree with DC
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60760
http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,1895...495698,00.html
McLaren could face expulsion from this year's Championship if found guilty of espionage by the FIA.
With the Woking's fate hanging in the balance following Thursday's announcement that the FIA had charged them in the ongoing 'spy' scandal, reports of possible punishments facing the team do not make for comfortable reading if you are a McLaren supporter - or driver.
'McLaren may face expulsion from this year's Formula One World Championship, destroying Lewis Hamilton's title challenge, if they are found guilty of industrial espionage,' claims The Guardian.
However, the newspaper seriously doubts that such a 'draconian penalty' will be enforced. 'The likelihood of McLaren being found guilty of a major offence seems distant at this moment. Although the FIA has the capacity to inflict the most draconian penalty of all, such a step would be unusual in the extreme.'
It has, though, happened in the past.
In 1984, the long-defunct Tyrrell team was excluded from the World Championship over a technical infringement. Tyrrell, though, is the only outfit since F1 Championship started in 1950 to suffer that fate.
However, Article 153, which McLaren are charged with breaching, provides for punishment ranging from a reprimand to disqualification, according to the Independent. And so far 'the FIA have refused to rule out any of the penalties.'
McLaren, though, could face other huge loses should they be excluded from the Championship as sponsors Vodafone, Santander, and Johnnie Walker will not want their sponsorship logos "parked in garages while the Formula One circus goes on', notes The Times.
Either, whatever the outcome is, many in the British media are predicting the end of Lewis Hamilton's title charge as even if McLaren aren't found guilty, the next weeks are set to be a difficult time for the Woking team and its drivers
What insanity. This is dampening a very-good season in the post-Michael era... :(
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcot
So he prints it at home and then sends his wife down to the local shops to copy more. For a man that has risen to the position of chief designer of a major F1 team he doesn't strike me as someone who is very bright.
Of course, that one makes good headlines in the press ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by akv89
Will Lewis or Fernando loose there points?
If that happens then the sport is dead in the water.Quote:
Originally Posted by FIA
How many of you would watch the rest of the season?
I sure wouldn't, there is no point. The current championship is making me look forward to the next race.
All this controversy has done is belittle the achievements done by McLaren. Even if they win the WDC or WCC there will be a suspicion over their success.
Spot on....this does not make sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian McC
why would someone of his supposed intelligence ever go through with this...in his own home?
The rumours are that the pages were A0 size and therefore they couldn't just copy it on a normal copier.Quote:
Originally Posted by AJP
This is a catastrophic brain fade if any of this is true...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan H
who in their right mind would try something like this and send the wife out with the shopping to get an extra copy while she is down at the shops...very fishy with devasting effects on the sport of F1...
I for one will not be watching the sport if McLaren are kicked out. I'm sick of watching a one horse race.
Those two were investigated and imprisoned (IIRC) by the German and Italian judicial systems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gannex
The FIA didn't lift a finger over the case, despite it being a clear and legally proven case of industrial espionage. Toyota never faced the prospect of penalties.
Oh and I'm not certain about Toyota being an innocent victim, the two people involved had approached numerous other teams for employment and had made clear that they could bring Ferrari data. Its difficult to believe Toyota was the only team they forgot to tell about bringing information from Ferrari. The technical chief, chief designer and senior manager at the time of the scandal were very very quickly replaced.... There was considerably more evidence in the Toyota affair that the information from Ferrari was actually used to influence the cars design than in the current case.
These articles about the whole affair are very good.
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpa...s_art_id=26514
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpa...s_art_id=23010
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpa...s_art_id=10679
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpa...s_art_id=10670
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpa...s_art_id=10669
Exactly!. In fact if this line of reasoning is correct he gets the data on disk and has capability to print an A0 size document at home - wow the cartridge re-fills for that printer must be like _buckets_. But even though he can apparently print them at home (for no good reason I can think of) he figures he needs more copies and instead of simply printing more he sends someone out to make photocopies. Brilliant, what does this guy do for a living?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian McC
Then we're told the the FIA says the 780 pages of documents contain enough information to build a 2007 Ferrari F1. Really?, I'd guess there are more than 780 different parts in the engine alone, so more than one part per page then?
I think Valve's suggestion that Elvis is involved has a reasonable chance of proving more credible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flat.tyres
NOT ME!! I have steadfastly held the line that Elvis may be the culprit, and in the end, I will be proven right. ;)
I don't see how the McLaren drivers can be penalised for the alleged actions of a disgruntled Ferrari employee that set off this whole runaway train of events.Quote:
Originally Posted by FIA
I doubt that any real action against McLaren will occur, mostly because it would be very difficult to prove any transfer of knowledge being implemented into the car. The reports of McLaren being excluded from the championship are just your normal tabloid journalist sensationalism which are only based on the fact that the FIA have it in thier power to do such a thing and that the FIA have not explicitally stated that they won't.
My personal slant is that Stepney and Coughlin were wanting to bail to another team, probably Honda and were wanting to transfer as much "knowledge" as possible, I have no doubt that this has happened before but this is the first time that it's all come out into the open, by the sounds of it probably due to indiscretion of both of the individuals involved.
The big problem here is this.....
If a team has no responsibility for the actions of it's employees, then the teams can start to cheat in every aspect of design knowing they can just scapegoat some unfortunate mechanic, engineer or programmer and get away with it.
Because if the FIA let this current situation go un-addressed, this is what you'll here next year....
"We didn't know our ECU's had been tampered with to let us rev to 20,000....that must have been John"
and
"We didn't know the car was 50 kilos underweight, Dave's responsible for weighing it"
Unfortunately for Mclaren, they are probably going to be the ones that the FIA use as an example....but what other choice does the FIA have?
At the end of the day, the employer is responsible for the actions of it's employees....and that is a legal argument that even Ron is going to come up against.
I think the main issue, when talking about the FIA taking action against Mclaren is that there must be evidence that some part of the pinched Ferrari design was used in this year's McLaren. If that is proven, then YES!! you are correct that the FIA must take some action against McLaren. However, I really doubt that any Ferrari design would have been incorporated into this year's McLaren; but then you never know.Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
We await the chapter of Trudygate with bated breath. :p :
That would amount to accept what a majority of people in these forums consider unacceptable: many here claim that Benetton got away of the software affair in 94 by claiming that "the cheating software was there but we didn't use it", and consider that wrong. This would be exactly the same: "we had the stolen blueprints, but we didn't use them". I'm interested to see how many people here think that Benetton was ok in 94; only those should claim that McLaren should not be punished.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valve Bounce
Mind you, it's not exactly the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by tinchote
If MacLaren had built "Ferrari" parts but didn't use them would be same level of seriousness.
:)
What strikes me most is that people here really believe that Coughlan did have access to the whole Ferrari data but he didn't use it for his work on the McLaren!
To put it clear, Stepney trying to use Ferrari plans to try to get a position at Honda it's pretty much logical. But Coughlan using the same Ferrari plans for the same reason doesn't make sense. I mean for sure that Honda, or any other team, would have valued more the McLaren plans from Coughlan as Stepney had the Ferrari ones at hand already. It simply doesn't make sense!
So why did Coughlan need the Ferrari plans?!
The FIA say that the plans that Coughlan had were enough to allow them to recreate the 2007 Ferrari. Let's suppose that McLaren didn't use those to copy ideas from it but rather to reproduce the Ferrari racer and use it in the wind tunnel together with their car to improve the McLaren's aerodynamics when running behind or in front of the Ferrari! This is a huge advantage gained in an illegal way too, without using Ferrari designs in their own cars.
It seems that there are many ways, other than directly copying the Ferrari designs, to use those stolen documents.
Why? Stepney has already said that "three or four people at Ferrari indicated to me, after reading stories of my approach to Honda, that they would be interested in joining a technical group to go to another team...Mike and I agreed to pool our expertise and talked about what we could bring to a team."Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Pooling expertise could include sharing information on how things were done in their respective (current) teams, and then discussing how that could be used to help another team (apparently Honda).
However, this does all assume that Stepney sent Coughlan the infamous document, and it is not yet confirmed that he did.
This is the latest report on the whole thing:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60794Quote:
According to La Repubblica, Coughlan confirms in his affidavit that he had Ferrari's technical drawings and internal documentation in his possession.
Coughlan also allegedly reveals that he showed these documents to several people at McLaren - and not just to managing director Jonathan Neale, as had previously been known.
According to La Repubblica, Coughlan states that all McLaren employees responded in the same manner, by distancing themselves from these documents and advising him to destroy them.
Furthermore, Coughlan has reportedly not confirmed that his source for the documents was indeed ex-Ferrari engineer Nigel Stepney, and the newspaper only cites Coughlan as saying he received the documents via an express courier mail service.
That's what I was thinking... create one, and see how you can mess up it's aero when it's following you.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
That's not what the FIA said, ioan. What they said was that the drawings were such as could be used to design, test, run, etc. a Ferrari. They were just defining the drawings, that's all, explaining that they were technical design drawings, not artist's impressions, or photographs, or anything else. There is no suggestion at all that these drawings were sufficient, on their own, for any purpose at all, never mind building an entire F1 car.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
I haven't said a word in this thread yet, partly because all the story looks still quite unclear and it's hard to say where exactly the truth is (only the guys involved in this, know exactly that).
But whatever the case is and whatever the penalties will be, I'd say one thing - FIA, please don't touch drivers' points!!! Why should they be punished?!?!
That would be pretty easy to answer. Just think about it from the other drivers perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by jens