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Yep, now it’s all Covid fault…Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
It’s public that the rules were already delayed long before the virus and the situation got worse as some teams, including MSport, pressured the FIA to switch from the initial plan of keeping current WRC cars, with an adiccional hybrid system, to create a whole new WRC car based in cost saving R5 tech. With so many changes, that can still include mandatory spaceframe chassis use, a postponement will be hardly surprising.
Estonian newspaper writing that there is some intrigue in Mexico regarding the new rules for 2022.
“I have a feeling that Malcolm (Malcolm Wilson, M-Sports Team Leader - Ed.) has got what he wanted and we are moving towards boring cars. We have just reached a very good level with the WRCs - they are really awesome to drive. Do we now give up our work and go back a step towards boredom? I find it very difficult to understand and there are some question marks about the future of the series, ”Neuville said.
"For me, WRC cars can't be like R5 machines because they're just boring to drive," says Evans. “Right now we have cars that are really awesome to drive. We shouldn't abandon such a good technology. It is possible to reduce costs within reason, because the rally championship must be attractive to factory teams. ”
i fully agree with both of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
No doubt that ’22 (or ’23…) WRC cars will loose the current 'wow factor' but from what’s known they won’t be R5 cars, although they’ll be using R5 based engine and transmission.
Anyway, the situation seems pretty clear: with current WRC overall costs (expensive cars, expanded calendar, etc) there’s little way to attract new manus and MSport will pull out sooner or later. This leaves 2 options: keeping current cars while reducing the number of events and their extension (less rally days and kms) or to keep events current format and the series expansion (to new and faraway locations) while running cheaper and less spectacular cars. Apparently the FIA has decided by the second. I hope they're rigth.
If I were those drivers I shouldn't whine too much, the way things are headed at the moment they'll end up playing computer games instead.
It's no doubt that the cars has to be cheaper to build and run from 2022. Its lots of possibly solutions, but from a fan point of wiew, a R5++ engine/transmision together with a hybrid system in a standarised tubeframe, some nice aerodynamics and wheelarces, and shorter suspention movement, will make the cars spectacular and nice looking, a little slower in curves and over jumps, but still faster than R5's.
Have to put some rules on aerodynamics, use of carbonfibre, and other expensive materials.
I rather hav 5 different brands in an R5++ WRC class than 2 in a maximum WRC class.
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Weird that people still talk about "R5" which isn´t even mentioned in 2020 rules, so it´s 100% sure that "R5" isn´t 2022 solution
Its not R5 like in todays R5's, but its the use of a similiar engine/transmission rules that has been mentioned.
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Spoilt brat Neuville moaning about the 2022 cars and not sure he wants to drive one !
The costs matter and we need more Manus in WRC, not to lose them.
Lower costs will create more seats and help.privateers join the WRC.
Ask most drivers and they'll probably prefer a state of the art car.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Evans then also?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
What's he said ?Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
But saying they'll be shit and he doesnt know if he wants to drive one... poor baby.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigWorm
If you're referring to EstWRC's post about an Estonian magazineQuote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Quote:
"For me, WRC cars can't be like R5 machines because they're just boring to drive," says Evans. “Right now we have cars that are really awesome to drive. We shouldn't abandon such a good technology. It is possible to reduce costs within reason, because the rally championship must be attractive to factory teams. ”
Evans sounds much more measured and understanding than Neuville.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
lol
Except the cost will not be lower. If anyone wants to step in and beat hyundai or toyota, they will need a similar budget. Probably even higher the first years to catch up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
The costs follow the budget teams want to spend, not the other way around.
Wonder what people would have said during 1986...
The 1987 effect would be achieved by making the new Rally3 class the main class. The 2022 cars will still be fast and spectacular.
Cheaper cars don't necessarily have to be less spectacular though do they?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
I think less aerodynamics and reduced suspension travel while keeping a good power level should make the cars move around more and favour a more sideways spectacular driving style, which is fun for the drivers as well as spectators. Yes stage times will be slower, but FIA want to reduce average speeds anyway don't they?
If the costs go down and the return of privateers becomes a possibility I can see Jari Matti and Paddon returning with the chance of winning events if the driving demands more sideways.Quote:
Originally Posted by GravelBen
driving will never demand more sideways. clean lines will always be the fastest way.Quote:
Originally Posted by steve.mandzij
it will be more difficult to drive clean lines, and it will be less punishing to go sideways, but it it will not be faster.
With the break in current action I have been watching some old WRC series.
In 2010 not long after the 2008 global financial crisis there were two Manufacturer Teams: BP Ford Abu Dhabi World Rally Team & Citroën Total World Rally Team.
But also each had a junior team, Stobart M-Sport Ford Rally Team & Citroën Junior Team.
And there were also SEVEN privateer teams running WRC's (Munchi's Ford, Petter Solberg WRT, Adapta WRT, Synergon Turan Motorsport, Van Merksteijn Motorsport, Monster WRT & Ipatec Racing) !
And in 2011 there there were entries by 23 Teams including Mini WRC Team and Kimi Raikkonen's Ice 1 Racing1 !!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_W...y_Championship
This scale of WRC entry is what we've lost with the high costs of the new 2017-spec cars and what a reduction in costs could bring back.
Out of those 23 teams only five managed a podium in 2011 (Ford, Stobart, Citroen, Petter Solberg and Mini), and out of those Petter twice and Mini once.
Outside the manufacturer teams it's rare to have competitional entries (unless we're talking about Loeb in 2006 or something). Østberg was close in 2017, but even he seemed to struggle with issues that the M-Sport cars never had, forcing him to retire even from decent positions.
I think the four-team competition from 2017 to 2019 has been the best the WRC has ever seen, even though it has been practically without privateers. And the title fight this year looks interesting, let's see how long it continues.
Sadly the WRC2 series hasn't really produced many interesting battles for seconds, it's been more about who finishes the rally without issues and some rallies have had a ridiculously low entry list.
In any case, if the cost-cutting brings us more factory teams, I'm all for it.
Yes it was great, but it didnt (couldn't) last.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Citroen bailing-out when Ogier left was a big loss, but they were already on a tight budget anyway. I dont think they were going to be around that much longer.
Recently M-Sport said the loss of Lappi's car in Mexico would impact them hard financially, so they could be next.
You also have to think of the fans - watching less than 10 WRC cars on a rally nowadays isnt great, compared to seeing 20 (even if they weren't all competitive).
Not the first time M-Sport says they're in financial trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
I know this divides opinions, some are more interested in the cars themselves rather than the driving. For me as a spectator on the stages, it doesn't matter if the gentleman driver has a new spec WRC car or an R5, it's just cruising anyway. Meanwhile, an R2 driven to the max can be more entertaining. As for watching All Live, it's only better if we get to see more WRC2 cars with onboard cams rather than the gentlemen with WRC cars.Quote:
You also have to think of the fans - watching less than 10 WRC cars on a rally nowadays isnt great, compared to seeing 20 (even if they weren't all competitive).
Really? I'm not sureI'd agree with that.....1998 - 2002 was pretty epic, maybe before your time.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
No, I actually followed that time pretty intensively. Of course it was also a great era.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
I would rather have 10 nail bitting fast drivers than total of 30 drivers and 25 of them woud be slower and of those 20 crash prone from rally2. So one gentleman driver now is too much at least for WRC+ Live. I would love to see mre teams or manufacturers but that how life it is and COVID-19 could worse the situation now, so I have none expections at all at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
nobody is stopping the teams from starting another junior team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
and nobody is stopping privateers from renting a car. there are people that are rich enough not having to worry about the costs, like serderidis or prokop. yet it seems they are not interested for some reason.
Well that's the point, it's too expensive now...also, car manufacturers aren't as wealthy and not willing to use as much money in rallying as before.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
Maybe under the current and maybe future economic status of the world would be to drop WRC17-20 cars now. And go R5/Rally2 as top class until 2022 or maybe 2023. As it look today, maybe 23 is the best option.
A lot of money saved for factory teams, that also can use their smaller budget to develop the next gen Rally1 cars, and test them well.
For drivers, they will get a possibility to compete with the best drivers and teams in same material. New talent will have thei chance to shine.
FIA need of course to keep the current joker system, so the factories will go bananas in development. And the few jokers need to be made for all.
If done this way, the new Rally1 will be a very exiting car, both for drivers and fans.
We easily forget!!!!!
No, R5's are rubbish compared to WRC, and if everyone would be on WRC2 cars, the big 3 would dominate even more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
How many times have we had this discussion in the past? If R5 are the top class it will make them more expensive and less accessible for everyone. It won't make WRC dramatically cheaper but it will make everything else more expensive. Please don't touch R5 when they work as a class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
Toyota don't have that kind of car, so they would be out. VW said that they don't support ICE anymore, Proton is too small, Skoda is not interested anymore. So that leaves only two options and very unlikely to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauri_J
If FIA are not able to find a way to make sure development and cost will be allowed to spiral in R5 for a year or two, they need to find something else to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
They have tools in their box already.
- Maxprice
- Joker system
It is just to make sure they control this according to their own rules.
Tommi/Toyota are developing a brand new WRC car now for 2021, that looks like it'll only see one year's use. The idea that they couldn't have an R5 ready for 2022 (if needs be) is ridiculous, especially when we've been led to believe some work has already been done on the R5 project.Quote:
Originally Posted by deephouse
Read again, the talk was about now, until 2022, when there`s a crisis going on in the society (and economy), top class should be r5...and that is impossible.
Woops! Didn't consider that as there's surely no chance of them being dropped for the remainder of this season. More likely this season won't resume at all if things are that bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmop
I agree, this was the best era imo. 98 had 5 different winners in the first 5 events
but those 5 won every event that year.Quote:
Originally Posted by L555MAT
In 2017 we had 7 different winners