They were the weakest TEAM at the start of 2017 even with Ogier. And they produced and tested their car last.Quote:
Originally Posted by jparker
Paranoia ? Ask yourself who wants 4-car teams and why ?
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They were the weakest TEAM at the start of 2017 even with Ogier. And they produced and tested their car last.Quote:
Originally Posted by jparker
Paranoia ? Ask yourself who wants 4-car teams and why ?
Maybe someone with a bit of time on their hands (or who can be bothered) could work out what the manu champ would look like this year if you could score (and so block) points with three cars instead of two. Would Hyundai actually be beating M-Sport? I doubt it.
I think if the rule came in the fans would certainly benefit. More seats, more cars on stages. Bigger competition. It's important for the teams involved but personally I couldn't care less about the manufacturers title.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
are you kidding me? how? i want a long explanation please.
To be honest my wish was that Ford would come back or some major sponsor would help Wilson and he could retain the same line-up. Tänak is getting on really well with Ogier and as you see M-sport is kicking everyones ass this season. Evans has also progressed and shows great speed. and i think they would have been even better next season.
But now it seems they will have a hard time next year.
I think everyone would be gutted to see M-Sport get cleaned out. Just as much as everyone was so thrilled for them last year to get Ogier. They were too good - everyone noticed :(
I guess you can compare it to football. You develop players (like Tanak) and then without the financial support they go to a bigger club. At least in football you get a transfer fee. Wouldn't surprise me if Malcolm has something written into his deal with Ott (he saved his career multiple times and developed him) but that's pure speculation from me.
If nothing else at least this finally gives Malcolm some leverage with Ford. No way he can guarantee any form of success next year without his two top guys.
4 cars rule with existing point system will make retirement+rally2 more significant than currently is, hence better competition.
I hate the current manufacturers points scoring system
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What exactly is the proposal with the 4 car rule. Best 2 out of the 4 score, or still nominations?
Best 3 from 4 score is what I saw written in Motorsport News last week.Quote:
Originally Posted by RS
If they are going to have so many drivers in the teams why not go back to the 2003-2009 points system when you had 10 for the win and etc. etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by er88
Yes and that is stupid imo cause it really forces teams to go with 4.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simmi
4 nominated and 2 scoring would be much better. Some rallies teams would run with 3, some with 4. Or if one team has more money and always uses 4 it's not much of an advantage vs 3 good drivers, if any.
Just a speculation, but I can see Dani Sordo ending up at the new team of Guerlain Chicherit in World RX. Maybe there is still a connection to Prodrive after the time when he was driving the Mini... :D
Not got time for a long explanation but just think back to before the season started.Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
Hyundai had a great driver line-up. Citroen had taken a year out to prepare and test the C3. Even Toyota had built their car earlier and had a hugely bigger budget. Everyone thought M-Sport would struggle. Ogier was the man but had no time in the car. Tanak wasnt yet a proven winner. Evans was just back from R5 season.
Nah the pre-season speculation was Citroen>>Hyundai~M-Sport>>Toyota , but almost.
WRC could do with a few Formula one sponsors to run 4 car teams.
https://www.grandprix247.com/2017/01...spend-in-2016/
Very much in support of the 4 car team rule. With three car teams there are still not enough seats for the amount of talent out there, and if a team can't afford four paid drivers they can always put their moneyed guys like Al Qassimi or Ostberg in the fourth car to mop up points.
How much is Evans getting paid ? How about Suninen? Östberg?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Do you really think that those how are without contract want big money ? I´m pretty sure that Bonusmoney for good results is enough for them.
I was talking about the cost of running a 4th car AND paying a driver.Quote:
Originally Posted by pantealex
Plus Ogier's salary for 2017 is a one-off paid by M.Wilson. That money will not be available again to fund a 4th official car in 2018.
It’s really hard to understand your objection to a possible 4 cars rule next year. Anyone should be delighted with it, because it means more official cars to watch and more opportunities for young drivers, making the series even more competitive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Besides, MSport main target isn’t the manu title (Wilson said it many times) and they’re used to have paying drivers running on their team, so this probably won’t be a logistical and financial nightmare for MSport, like you're predicting.
Let's put Mads scoring this year and you have 4 M-Sport WRC cars :)
If we assume three car teams, we have four paths to speculate now. Ford will either return or Ogier goes to Citroen, and Tänak can go to Toyota or stay at Ford/M-Sport.
1. Ford team returns
I don't see any changes happening to the current seats, except that Toyota may want to exchange Hänninen for Suninen. But it would be a risk with having two rather inexperienced drivers in the same team.
2. Ford team returns, but Tänak still goes to Toyota
This way, I would replace Tänak with Suninen, and Hänninen is left without a seat.
3. No Ford return, Tänak stays, Ogier goes to Citroen
Lefebvre is put aside to drive the C3 R5, Suninen sits in the DMack car with Evans and Tänak in the M-Sport cars. Hänninen gets to stay at Toyota.
4. No Ford return, Tänak goes to Toyota and Ogier goes to Citroen
Same as scenario 3, but Hänninen is now dropped for Tänak. M-Sport has one available seat, I'd assume Wilson puts Camilli there (he could also prefer Camilli to Suninen in scenarios 2-3). Or could this be Tidemand's chance? His manager didn't like the idea of having to pay for a drive...
Also in all above scenarios, Al-Qassimi and Loeb could drive Citroen here and there. And also I don't see any changes at the Hyundai camp, Paddon and Sordo would have to share the third car.
And I'd put my money on scenario 4...
Another interesting factor was posed by the Absolute Rally podcast. If Ogier goes to Citroen, will he hang on to the massive Red Bull sponsorship like at VW and M-Sport? And how would that fit in with Abu Dhabi? Would it just give Citroen more budget or would Qassimi take Abu Dhabi money to M-Sport?
Isn't Red Bull just his personal sponsor? Not sure what the problem would be.
1. Not going to happenQuote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
2. Possible
3. Also not true
4. This is also possible but I don´t want it to happen.
5. Ogier and Tänak to Toyota, my personal favourite ;)
6. No Ford return, Tänak goes to Toyota and Ogier stays M-Sport
For those original 4 options my answer is 2.
and reserve answer is 6. Number 5 maybe only my dream :)
Would you drop Latvala or Lappi?Quote:
Originally Posted by pantealex
Ogier has said he wants to be at a factory team. And Wilson has said he cannot afford another 2017 season. Even if they got a big sponsor to fund Ogier's salary for 2018, they would still need more funds to further develop the car.Quote:
6. No Ford return, Tänak goes to Toyota and Ogier stays M-Sport
As numerous times before I am not in on the Suninen hype just yet.
- for money reasons it's probably more likely Camilli drives at M-Sport (but who knows how much Joukhi can bring for Suninen)
- for sporting reasons Tidemand is just as likely
It is entirely possible to get to WRC too early.
What does this mean? I thought Camilli was Wilson's "investment of the future" and his contract is ending at the end of 2017. His car has no external sponsor decals.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Camilli definitely has money. Apparently a backer in Monaco.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
My bet is there won't be a Ford return, Ogier will go to Citroen, Tanak will go to Toyota.
It leaves MSport in a bit of bother as there aren't many rally winning drivers available. Evans and Ostberg are definitely reliable finishers but not going to win any titles with that line-up.
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Again I just don't think there's much point speculating too much until we know 3 vs 4 cars. That literally changes everything.
I've seen a few people naturally assuming Paddon and Sordo share a car. Do you think Paddon will accept having to share a car for a season? I don't see that happening at all - but again, a fourth car solves everything.
Do people think that Loeb would still do 3-4 rallies at Citroen if Ogier is there? To what extent has time healed their relationship, and also, would Citroen still need that PR boost if they had Ogier and a #1 on the door?
It doesn't really change that much anymore. Like said, Hyundai has four drivers. M-Sport has been regularly showing up with 4-5 Fiestas even though not all of them have been manu points scorers. Toyota has Hänninen and Citroen Lefebvre to put in the fourth car or to put aside if the rules allow only three cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simmi
What other options does he have? Leave and go to New Zealand to have fun in an AP4 car? Get a budget for an M-Sport Fiesta?Quote:
Originally Posted by Simmi
Of course sharing the car could mean occasional four car outings in selected events, but still no full season for either Sordo nor Paddon.
Also interesting question considering it's nowhere near confirmed that Loeb would do any competitive WRC rallies anymore. But if he will, I don't think Citroen finds a problem with that, as it will still be a big PR boost even if Ogier is driving for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simmi
Hyundai should wake up and realise they need an official r5 asia pacific team (with hankook rally tyres http://www.hankookmotorsport.com/) to take some of the attention that the skoda mrf team gets for winning all the time.
I think hyundai might find it might take at least a season to gain the experience of the asia pacific rounds to compete with settings, conditions, logisitics etc
http://dealers.skoda-auto.com/663/en-IN skoda monte carlo etc
https://youtu.be/M-bQyZ7ZpNA mfr tyre tv ad
Paddon and reeves and an asian driver for the local fans. run the team out of aus where there are engineering facilities.
It's quite simple. If 4-cars comes in the best driver's will go to the three factory teams who can afford them. M-Sport will be left with juniors and paying gentlemen. They will have no chance in either championship.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
LatvalaQuote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Everyone has said many things, of course Ogier want´s factory seat, so does everyone else also.
If there are only 3 cars then he might have to share with Sordo; his pace on Tarmac still isn't good enough. However, as you say, a fourth car would solve that issue. I still think he needs lots more Tarmac experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simmi
You would drop the guy who'd be in the championship fight had his car not broken down?Quote:
Originally Posted by pantealex
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Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by steve.mandzij
and you would drop future world champion.
At the end of 2015 Wilson said Camilli was a personal bet and not a paying driver. He has a bunch of personal sponsors but none is visible on the car (like those of Suninen), which make believe they’re not running budget contributors. Behind one of those sponsors is Jacques Lions, a French rallyman from the early 70’s (still active in historic events) that owns a perfume company located in Grasse. Camilli has also been helped by other former drivers, like “Tchine” and Nicolas Bernardi.Quote:
Originally Posted by rhm
Anyway, if MSport manages to keep Tanak or Evans alongside the talented Suninen and the reliable Ostberg, they’ll still be strong contenders next year. Fingers crossed.
If Tanak (or Ogier) stays, yes. But with just Evans as No.1 with Suninen & Ostberg... no chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Id like to see Msport run Evans, Suninen and a paying Ostberg in their team next year, with perhaps the Dmack car being shared by Camilli/ Tidemand across the full year. Would be a very decent line-up all things considered.
However it would not surprise me when Malcolm loses both Seb and Tanak (highly likely), he just decides to run all his team on Dmacks. 'Dmack Msport' is a possibility for next year I think if no backers are found.
if Ford will not come back (very likely) and both Ogier and Tänak are leaving (very likely) and M-Sport takes both titles this year (very likely), then i think Malcolm retires at the end of this year (best time ever for retireing)
So there will be a "Dmack Slowsonsport WRT" with paying drivers for many years...
Absolutely no chance MSport/Malcolm retires - bet my life on thatQuote:
Originally Posted by eib1
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