You know it well that I only believe what I see, and back in 2008 Jenson was nothing but a journey man.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
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You know it well that I only believe what I see, and back in 2008 Jenson was nothing but a journey man.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
No one would be happy to be beaten, but jenson doesn't crumble under defeat and he doesn't lose his composure. Lewis does get lost though.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
Man, you'll never make teh difference between was a journey man and is a journey man. Might be because of the extremely 'difficult' English grammar! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
It must be something to do with the English language but in my opinion, a Journeyman Driver will always be just that. You can't polish a turd.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Perhaps you fail to see what's in front of your eyes ;)
You can, actually. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
Mythbusters Polishing a Turd
No, not at all. Bieber had an awful qualifying and Webber didn't have KERS. So that cost RB a lot of time in quali.Quote:
Originally Posted by jens
As for the race, well, you want to know if Red Bull was faster than McLaren or not? Well, when MS retired and Bieberl had clear road in the first stint, he closed up by 2,5 seconds in 5 laps compared to Button. Yeah, sure, McLaren was much faster. In the following stints, there was nothing to suggest McLaren was faster than Red Bull.
Christian Horner - 'McLaren didn't win, Red Bull lost' | Planet F1 | Formula One | News, Standings, Results, Features, Video
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And although Red Bull had a better Sunday than they did Saturday, finishing second and fourth in the race as opposed to fifth and sixth in qualifying, Horner is adamant his outfit is actually faster than McLaren.
"It was a good recovery and we had good pace in the race," said the Red Bull team boss.
"We were right on same pace as the McLarens and could have been faster.
Yeah, I could do without people telling others they are liars or need shrinks as well, but what can you do, every forum has its bitter losers.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
I think Button was nothing special, but the last few years he has clearly improved. The Button of 2005 was not a top driver, the Button of 2012 clearly is.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
I think pretty much everyone regarded him as a journeyman back in 2005 for example. But he has raised his level, perhaps much due to the new tyres.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
I think many of the people 'in the know' inside F1 always new Button was a talented driver. Even back in 2005.
On Jenson ButtonQuote:
Gil De Ferran: '“It became apparent to me very quickly that Jenson’s skill was at a very high level looking at his data traces. There was never any exaggeration in his throttle, brake or steering, everything was done the precise amount. He would never over do it and come back, It indicated tremendous amount of feel, I think a driver that has the level of feel and sensitivity in his hands and feet that Jenson has, is able to drive at a very high limit without ever making mistakes or overstepping the mark.”
“I remember looking at his data after qualifying (for 2005British GP) and thinking, ‘Jesus, Christ!’ He had basically judged every corner to absolute perfection. That’s something the public doesn’t see; the tiny adjustments he made to find a whole new limit was very impressive to me. It was perfect – there was not one correction too many. It was all done with surgical precision; the throttle, brake and steering were all just perfect
“I can’t tell you how hard it is to go that fast and be smooth. The public likes the guy with the tail out but in my opinion, being on the limit without those moves, demonstrates a higher degree of skill.
Alonso is doing it now in Ferrari, did too when he returned to RenaultQuote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
Hamilton did it in 2009
Schumi did it for Ferrari in 1996
2005 San Marino GP Button easily let Schumi past, Alonso held Schumi off for the last 10 laps and ended up winning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
That was some overtaking move, I wouldnt take it from button, but rather give to Schumy for pulling that off.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
Yes I think this is just some misunderstanding coming from subtle interpretations of the language. I agree the word journeyman implies consistent mediocrity over a career. If a driver shows excellence now that he didn't in the past, then he was more like a diamond in the rough back then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
I think you may have hit the nail on the head there Re- tyres Gary.. that makes a lot of sense. Early in Jensons career when his budget was funded by his dad, financial constraints forced him to adopt his signiture super smooth driving style to make the tyres last as long as possible. The new tyres do seem to reward his driving style over a race distance and also in wet conditions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
So was Mansell. He sold his house and lived in the back of a Ford transit when he was coming up through the ranks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
Money was tight and he drove poor equipment. This is where his aggressive style came from. He would run as little wing as possible to make up for lack of straightline speed and man handle the difference in the corners. He carried into F1. Never stopped him being regarded as one of the best drivers of his generation which had tyre wars hence soft compounds.
Take the 1986 Australian GP for instance. The haters say Mansell over drove the car when in fact Goodyear brought the wrong tyres.
Which reminds me. 2005 was supposed to be Jenson's year because of the ban on tyre stops and yet nothing truly special happened to make JB stand out.
Speak for yourself. I always believed he was one of the very best out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
What about 2008? The Honda was an absolute heap of turd and struggled to polish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
Great in a good car, poor in a poor car. IMHO you're never considered a great unless you have allround ability.
He has had some shocking cars and stuck with them. Working quietly with the engineers back in Japan or doing his best dragging the sad sack of (beep) round the track. I never claimed he could do miracles in a car that just could not deliver like some people on here seem to do but you've been around here long enough to know I never lost faith and was sometimes a solitary voice on these hallowed boards :DQuote:
Originally Posted by wedge
Well, he outscored his team-mate 37:1. I think that is quite a special achievement. :p :Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
I don't see, why is Button's past so easily dismissed. I would agree that he was struggling in 2007-08 in a bad car, but his 2004-06 seasons were pretty good. I remember Button was among the biggest point-scorers in the second half of 2006 in a car that clearly was not the fastest car in the field. How is that not an achievement? Button was performing well over a full season considering the cars and beating his team-mates. Like Alonso is doing now. Should we dismiss Alonso's skills right now just because he is in a bad car and not winning?
Taku as team mate then its hardly surprising.Quote:
Originally Posted by jens
:yawn: Excuses, excuses :DQuote:
Originally Posted by wedge
Until something happens, and he undergoes another mysterious conversion, whereby we are all expected to forget the opinion he held so passionately but hours before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
I think the first signs we're back in 2003 and then 2004.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
He drove well for Williams in 2000, and was poor in an awful 2001 Benetton and solid again in the 2002 Renault.
But then 2003, I think it was in Austria he finished 4th and in with the top teams in his BAR and then he lead calmly in USA and Japan that season.
Then of course 2004 he scored 10 odd podiums and at times was the only man remotely close to Ferrari's (i.e Imola and Monza 2004) It was clear to me he was better than I originally thought.
But its true what people said he struggled in bad cars.
However I don't think anyone thought he would be one of the top F1 drivers. Even with his 6 wins in 2009 and a world championship people questioned him, however we have to admit he has been class and been equal to anyone and is in the frame to win another Championship should things go his way.
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Originally Posted by wedge
As Jens points out.. although he didn't really stand out in the grand scale of things he did in terms of his team mate, who despite not being highly regarded is still the closest meaningful comparison one can make.
Fair point regarding Mansell, he made his driving style which went in the opposite direction (to Jensons) work for him then... but would his agressive style work as well for him now?
I just look at Lewis who is able to push a car to the max and will get a far higher qualifying percentage record over the season yet the slower (over one lap) but smoother Button still seems to be fairing better... if it isn't the tyres, what is it?
I suppose we could all jumping the gun on this, maybe Lewis was just unlucky in Oz and will bounce back and consistantly outpoint him this year.. no one knows but It looks like its going to be a very close and interesting season especially with the Bulls and McLaren so close at this stage. :)
Good post in general. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by aki13
But I can mention that actually around 2006 I thought Button was a top driver, but in the next two years he ruined that reputation. To be honest, at that time I thought the same about Heidfeld too, but unlike Button he never got such career-break.
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Originally Posted by Knock-on
Indeed he was a good driver, but just how good? That's what divided opinion because he certainly wasn't exceptional.Quote:
Originally Posted by jens
Barrichello was a better quality driver to Sato. The difference was minimal but the general pattern was that Rubens was better when the car was poor.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by jens
Based on his performances before Brawn GP, he was nothing special. Nowhere near Kimi, Alonso, Hamilton, Schumacher league.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
Here's there or thereabouts.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
I thought last year's Japanese GP was his best win. It was hard to name a winner mid-race, just as Hamilton accomplished similar feats in that year's Chinese & German GPs and 2010 Canada.
JB needs to be consistent at driving at the highest level if he wants to be considered a great, IMHO.
So does his teammate...Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
I still think Heidfeld was, in his day, one of the best and fastest drivers in F1. His record against his team mates is nearly impeccable. In 2001 he beat Kimi in Sauber. The next year he beat Filipe Massa in the same car. In 2005 he beat Mark Webber in Williams. Then he beat Jacques Villeneuve in 2005 and 2006. And what most people forget is that he beat the highly regarded Robert Kubica 2 out of the 3 seasons they were teammates. Along the way, he also beat a great many number of journeymen.Quote:
Originally Posted by jens
Once Heifeld lost his permanent seat in F1 though, he lost a certain amount of confidence, and he was never quite the same as a substitute driver. But in the right environment, I still think Heidfeld could have been a multiple GP winner. He just never had the right environment around him, and he never made a team 'his own'.
We think of F1 and motor racing in general as an individual sport, but the reality is that those around a driver, managing them, advising them, etc. have a lot to do with their success or failures. You look at how Button improved after he changes his manager after the whole BAR-Williams contract saga, and how he realised that he had been getting the wrong advice from his manager and that had affected his racing. Who knows, in another universe, with different people around him, Heidfeld's story could have turned out very differently.
Let's not forget that Kimi and Massa were rookies though, when they partnered Heidfeld at Sauber. Nick already had one or two seasons under his belt.Quote:
Originally Posted by aryan
I know many people rated (and rate) him highly, but I have to say I never saw it... He was solid, but never showed any sign of greatness IMO.
IMO Hamilton is a great driver. More naturally gifted than Button because he is better at consistently extracting the maximum from a car. Has JB ever polished a turd as LH did in 2009?Quote:
Originally Posted by F1boat
Consistent results is a different matter.
He is an exciting driver, but I wouldn't call him a great driver. Too many crashes and problems. He can become a great, however, with a few more championships.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
So was Senna.Quote:
Originally Posted by F1boat
Granted, last year looked like LH was heading towards the direction of Wasted Talent.
I never said that Bruno is a great driver ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
All its that this totally depends on candidate's sheer luck and his zeal. Sometimes the ever best person gets beated by other contestant and sometimes we see the racer topping the charts who never has ranked even in top 10. So only predictions can be made. According to me there are few ones only to whom I can point out. Among them are Schumacher, Alonso, Webber, Trulli, Button, Massa and Dovizioso.