People Power

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Originally Posted by chuck34

????? What does that mean?

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Like their rhetoric, not one damn thing.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

So you too have no objection to the endless march of the big chains on the high street, even if it brings about bland corporate uniformity everywhere one goes?

What a depressing world some people seem to want to live in.

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Who says it would be bland?

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Until then there's always democracy I suppose :p

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Or communism :p : Share everything, that should shut the have not's up...oh wait that don't work either :p :

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

Who says it would be bland?

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Of course it would be bland, because the big high street chains are necessarily dull corporate entities.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Of course it would be bland, because the big high street chains are necessarily dull corporate entities.

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You are generalising! It's just like people who say all blonds are stupid! I diasgree with your view!

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

You are generalising! It's just like people who say all blonds are stupid! I diasgree with your view!

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Give me an example, then, of how the increasing dominance of large chains on the high street promotes individuality and variety from one place to the next.

You should know Virgin Money to name one. I don't know about the sh!thole you live in but in our sh!thole we have "large chains" that are dynamic, fresh, forward thinking and anything but "bland". Instead of generalising, maybe look around and you will be amazed at what you will see :)

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

You should know Virgin Money to name one. I don't know about the sh!thole you live in but in our sh!thole we have "large chains" that are dynamic, fresh, forward thinking and anything but "bland". Instead of generalising, maybe look around and you will be amazed at what you will see :)

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The '****hole' in which I live is Berlin, and near me there is what I call a dynamic range of fresh, anything but bland shops — almost all independents rather than large chains. This is my idea of the description, not a high street made up of Starbucks, McDonalds and a load of big supermarkets. I would suggest you are too over-awed by the marketing hype, not least of Virgin.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

The '****hole' in which I live is Berlin, and near me there is what I call a dynamic range of fresh, anything but bland shops — almost all independents rather than large chains. This is my idea of the description, not a high street made up of Starbucks, McDonalds and a load of big supermarkets. I would suggest you are too over-awed by the marketing hype, not least of Virgin.

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:erm: You asked and I provided. All "colourful" entities market themselves. If you think I am awed by the marketing of the likes of Virgin, I may think you are awed by the marketing of Sylvia's Corner Cookie Shop cause they offer you a free cookie with every 12 you order. Each to his own BD, each to his own.

Individuality is found within.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

:erm: You asked and I provided. All "colourful" entities market themselves. If you think I am awed by the marketing of the likes of Virgin, I may think you are awed by the marketing of Sylvia's Corner Cookie Shop cause they offer you a free cookie with every 12 you order. Each to his own BD, each to his own.

Individuality is found within.

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Quite so, but I find it difficult to conceive of how anyone could find individuality in something like a chain store that isn't individual. One may often find what one wants in them, but let's not bestow on them characteristics they don't have.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Quite so, but I find it difficult to conceive of how anyone could find individuality in something like a chain store that isn't individual. One may often find what one wants in them, but let's not bestow on them characteristics they don't have.

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It doesn't matter what the shops look like, its what you find inside. Even chain stores have colourful staff in one store and boring ones in another. The stores have the same signs, but are very different.

I also enjoy the small "individual" stores, but the "chains" are just as good if not better. I'm not worried about which shop I buy from, just as long as I get what I wanted
( preferably not made in China :p : ).

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

It doesn't matter what the shops look like, its what you find inside. Even chain stores have colourful staff in one store and boring ones in another. The stores have the same signs, but are very different.

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I think one would have to spend an awful lot of time in a shop to discover the individual traits of those employed within. The fact that one member of staff somewhere may be dour and another friendly is not an example of individuality in my book. The homogenity is inherent in the fact of a shop being part of a chain. Homogenity in terms of products, prices, decor, etc is surely the very nature of the chain store?

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

I'm not worried about which shop I buy from, just as long as I get what I wanted

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I am worried about both, and, now I live somewhere with a plethora of them on my doorstep, make a conscious effort to support smaller outlets. What I buy from them is better anyway.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

( preferably not made in China :p : ).

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Why?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

The '****hole' in which I live is Berlin, and near me there is what I call a dynamic range of fresh, anything but bland shops — almost all independents rather than large chains. This is my idea of the description, not a high street made up of Starbucks, McDonalds and a load of big supermarkets. I would suggest you are too over-awed by the marketing hype, not least of Virgin.

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I agree that small independent shops are usually a great change from big corporate box stores. That's a great thing when you want a good deli lunch, or a different type of just about anything. But where can you go to a "Mom And Pop" local independent and find a great deal on a big flat screen or the newest laptop?

Every person has the right to speak with their money, yet many if not most will go to those large corporate places for major purposes. And most do so for the same reason the "occupy" crowd is angry at the corporations... pure greed. They want the same product for the best price. They don't want to pay the local store $100 more for the same flat screen TV or laptop.

None of these corporate entities would exist without consumer support. If the majority of consumers changed their spending habits some or many of them would cease to exist. But the majority seem to be just as concerned in the quest for money as the corporations. So really the greed of the individual has resulted in the individual accusing the corporations of being greedy.

Is anyone protesting their neighbors that shop at the big box stores?

In the pursuit of wealth or profit how much is enough :confused:

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Originally Posted by airshifter

I agree that small independent shops are usually a great change from big corporate box stores. That's a great thing when you want a good deli lunch, or a different type of just about anything.

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Well, I now have a fine old market hall (Marheineke Markthalle, Berlin-Kreuzberg) up the road, so I use independent outlets for everything, not just the different stuff — I get my bread from the bakeries, my meat from the butchers, my vegetables and fruit from the greengrocers, and so forth. When I move away next year, this is one of the things I shall miss most. It is infinitely preferable to getting these goods from a supermarket, which I could easily do.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

But where can you go to a "Mom And Pop" local independent and find a great deal on a big flat screen or the newest laptop?

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Branded electrical goods I do make an exception for. I suppose I am referring in general to food and clothes. But I won't pretend that I wouldn't prefer never to have to go in a large chain store outlet for anything, so horrendous is the experience. Nor do I shop around particularly, in part because I just can't be bothered, and in part because ancillary deals they try to sell you always muddy the waters as to which is really cheapest. My time is better spent doing things other than making endless price comparisons. So I just go to the shop which has the best range and is nearest.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

And most do so for the same reason the "occupy" crowd is angry at the corporations... pure greed.

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Have you spoken to anyone involved in order to get an idea of their motivation beyond that portrayed in the media of your choice? A couple of friends of mine have taken part. Neither is a greedy individual in the slightest, and to say otherwise would be offensive.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

None of these corporate entities would exist without consumer support. If the majority of consumers changed their spending habits some or many of them would cease to exist. But the majority seem to be just as concerned in the quest for money as the corporations. So really the greed of the individual has resulted in the individual accusing the corporations of being greedy.

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I think it goes deeper than that — to the very nature of said corporations compared with smaller outlets, for example. I agree that there is a strong streak of greed in much of society today — why else is there so much personal debt? — but perhaps this is also born in part of the way the corporate world encourages it, and those who are unpleasant but successful are held in high regard?

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

In the pursuit of wealth or profit how much is enough :confused:

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And is the person pursuing it a ****? This, to me, is far more important than how much money they have. Sadly, as I have said before, there are just too many *****.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

In the pursuit of wealth or profit how much is enough :confused:

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I'd say as much as a person desires is enough. If they or their corporations are really greedy and offer no service or product that the rest of us want, their quest for wealth would be short lived. It's only by providing things that the consumers want that any of them get large and wealthy.

And I'm sure the people living in true poverty could look at us... the group of what we consider "normal" working people, and see us as greedy and having things we don't need. Most of us have places to live, vehicles, computers, big screen TVs, cell phones, etc. A person living in true poverty would see "us" as living in excess, and a bunch of material pricks.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

I'd say as much as a person desires is enough. If they or their corporations are really greedy and offer no service or product that the rest of us want, their quest for wealth would be short lived. It's only by providing things that the consumers want that any of them get large and wealthy.

And I'm sure the people living in true poverty could look at us... the group of what we consider "normal" working people, and see us as greedy and having things we don't need. Most of us have places to live, vehicles, computers, big screen TVs, cell phones, etc. A person living in true poverty would see "us" as living in excess, and a bunch of material pricks.

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If as much as one wants is enough, monopoly laws would never have been passed in this country.
There is a point where wealth aqusition turns into greed, and those who wish to say this country is founded on Christian priciples should never say greed is good.

There is a limit, but at the same time a government has no right to prevent parents from passing on their wealth to their loved ones, in total.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

I'd say as much as a person desires is enough.

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Really? Do you not recognise the concept of 'too much'?

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Originally Posted by airshifter

I'd say as much as a person desires is enough. If they or their corporations are really greedy and offer no service or product that the rest of us want, their quest for wealth would be short lived. It's only by providing things that the consumers want that any of them get large and wealthy.

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Or more importantly need.

There are four major banks in Australia which control 92% of the banking sector. They control the electronic payments system. It is virtually impossible as a wage earner, or dividend earner, or rent collector not to operate a bank account.

If you don't want to eat out at a restaurant, you can choose to eat at home. Likewise if you still want to eat out at a restaurant, you can choose to find a cheaper one. However, on average the four major banks make roughly $1000 in profits from every single person in Australia and because their fees structures are similar, it's not like you can choose to find a cheaper one.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

In the pursuit of wealth or profit how much is enough :confused:

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Well, I'm glad someone pursues it, otherwise instead of having internet discussions with people who live halfway around the world, we'd just be sitting around a campfire making plans to raid some other clans hunting grounds and/or how to steal their women :p

Ah good stuff here Rollo. Sorry I haven't been online for a few days. So sorry to drag this back up.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Why does giving government freedom scare you then?
Somewhere in this discussion is the question of governance and power.

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Government power scares me because there is little recourse if you find yourself on the wrong end of that power. The Founders of this nation knew that, all too well. That is why they set up a very limited government with enumerated powers they were not to exceed.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

I find it a little strange that you object to government having a degree of governance and power when government can and should be held accountable because the executives of government are elected officials.

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But once you get to the national level of government, the individual has VERY little power over those in the government. I have two Senators out of 100, and 1 Representative out of 435. I can vote for the best people ever, but if others do not, my voice will be over-rulled everytime.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Whereas you have no problem at all when governance and power sits with largely unelected officials (in the context of broad society) making decisions in the corporate world.

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Are you speaking of beaurocrats? If so I have a HUGE problem with the number of them, the scope of their influence over our society, and their lack of accountability.

Or are you talking about CEO's and such. If that is the case, then I have lot's of say over them. I do not buy their products, and they loose some profit. But it's not much you say. But it is to me.

A "bad" company is not forcing money out of my hands that I choose not to spend. However, "bad" government has the ability to force me to hand over money. See the difference?

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Originally Posted by Rollo

The decisions of Wall St have far more of a degree of actual influence on people's livelihoods. How much responsibility should be laid at Wall St for the global financial crisis, and/or when the decision is taken to shift production plants to different cities or countries, the corporate world takes no responsibility whatsoever for the people's lives that its just ruined.
All praise the corporate world, give them freedom. Yet at the same time restrain governments?

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Wall St might have too much influence over people's livelihood. But I would say that had they not been propped up that things would have been more painful at the time, yet recovery would have been much quicker.

Yes restrain government! That is the lesson to be learned from history.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

Oh I could do the same job, I'm perfectly aware of that thanks.

You missed my point though or I suspect you did get it but refused to answer.

The fact is that the financial sector is disproportionately well paid to the extent that it skews local and national economies.

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Why is it any of your business what they get paid?

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Originally Posted by Malbec

In your country and mine it is now state subsidised and partially state owned at great cost to the entire population. Yet it still carries on behaving the way it did with impunity in the way that got it into great trouble in the first place.

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They continue to behave as they did before, becasue it was clearly demonstrated to them that there are no consequences for their behavior. The solution was not to bail them out, but to allow them to fail.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

Do you not think that major reform of the financial sector is necessary to make it more accountable, and to reduce the impact it has on the economy when it goes wrong due to mismanagement?

Your debate with others on whether the free market is a good thing is missing the point IMO.

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Allowing the free market to work (allowing bad business practices to be punished by failure) would make people fairly accountable. Your debate position that government must fix everything is dangerous and will lead to worse issues in the future, IMO.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Not being a money-obsessed ****?

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That is fine. You are completely within your rights not te be a money-obsessed ****. I am not either, I have turned down chances at being about one step below filthy rich myself because I made a consious decision to see my family.

But what business is it of yours if someone is a money-obsessed ****? Why should you allow that to bother you?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Give me an example, then, of how the increasing dominance of large chains on the high street promotes individuality and variety from one place to the next.

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Apple. Apparently they are the height of "individuality", according to some.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

The '****hole' in which I live is Berlin, and near me there is what I call a dynamic range of fresh, anything but bland shops — almost all independents rather than large chains. This is my idea of the description, not a high street made up of Starbucks, McDonalds and a load of big supermarkets. I would suggest you are too over-awed by the marketing hype, not least of Virgin.

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Did the free market make this possible? Or did the government step in and decree it to be so?

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

In the pursuit of wealth or profit how much is enough :confused:

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In the name of "fairness", how much is too much? :confused:

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Government power scares me because there is little recourse if you find yourself on the wrong end of that power.

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And what recourse, precisely, does one have against a large company unless one is in possession of substantial legal resources?

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Did the free market make this possible? Or did the government step in and decree it to be so?

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I don't know — except to say that supermarkets do not have anywhere near the same dominance in Germany as in the UK and elsewhere. Whether this is to do with regulations of some form I have no idea.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Apple. Apparently they are the height of "individuality", according to some.

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No-one has said that. I certainly haven't. All I have done is say their customer service, in my experience, is exemplary. A very different thing, unless one reads what one wants into any statement.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

That is fine. You are completely within your rights not te be a money-obsessed ****. I am not either, I have turned down chances at being about one step below filthy rich myself because I made a consious decision to see my family.

But what business is it of yours if someone is a money-obsessed ****? Why should you allow that to bother you?

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It is my business to have an opinion on someone. Saying that I should not allow the fact of someone being a **** to bother me is akin to suggesting that I should have no emotions, whether positive or negative, at all.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Why is it any of your business what they get paid?

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Do you believe it wrong to criticise in any way anyone's remuneration in the private sector?

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Originally Posted by chuck34

In the name of "fairness", how much is too much? :confused:

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When you have more than you can spend in your own life time.

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Originally Posted by Eki

When you have more than you can spend in your own life time.

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I'm not sure that the object of anyone can or should be to have just enough money to see them through their life with nothing left over in the end. Financial prudence and security are very sensible things.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I'm not sure that the object of anyone can or should be to have just enough money to see them through their life with nothing left over in the end. Financial prudence and security are very sensible things.

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I didn't mean to have just enough money to see them through life, I meant enough to buy everything they can imagine of what they can use in their life time like, fancy houses they live in, fancy cars they drive, fancy yachts they sail on, fancy food they can eat, around the world trips they travel, etc.. When they have money to buy more houses they can live in, more cars they can drive, more yachts they can sail, more around the world trips they have time to travel and more fancy food they can eat, etc., then they have too much money. It's like if you have enough nuclear weapons to destroy the earth, it's enough. If you have enough nuclear weapons to destroy the world multiple times, then it's too much.

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Originally Posted by Eki

I didn't mean to have just enough money to see them through life, I meant enough to buy everything they can imagine of what they can use in their life time like, fancy houses they live in, fancy cars they drive, fancy yachts they sail on, fancy food they can eat, around the world trips they travel, etc.. When they have money to buy more houses they can live in, more cars they can drive, more yachts they can sail, more around the world trips they have time to travel and more fancy food they can eat, etc., then they have too much money. It's like if you have enough nuclear weapons to destroy the earth, it's enough. If you have enough nuclear weapons to destroy the world multiple times, then it's too much.

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You see, despite my views on the private sector, I don't have a problem with people having that much money per se so long as they have earned it in a legal manner. Just don't expect me to automatically respect people on the grounds of their wealth. What I do object to is the growing gap between richest and poorest, and those situations in which such earnings are not deserved — if they have been at the helm of a failing business, left and been granted an enormous pay-off, for example.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

And what recourse, precisely, does one have against a large company unless one is in possession of substantial legal resources?

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If they ripped me off, I can take them to court ("substantial" resources aren't really required). Or if I just don't like a company for whatever reason, I just won't buy from them. In the opposite (government) case, I can't sue the government, and they will take my money wether I like it or not.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I don't know — except to say that supermarkets do not have anywhere near the same dominance in Germany as in the UK and elsewhere. Whether this is to do with regulations of some form I have no idea.

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Unless you can point to some regulation that supports the supermarket dominance then it (the dominance) is probably because of market forces. People have made a conscious choice to shop there instead of their local farmer's market. Where I live we have several farmer's markets and I shop there when I can because their stuff tastes better, and is usually cheaper. But sometimes things are out of season, or I get lazy, so I go to the supermarket. Personally I like that choice. I'm sorry you do not.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

No-one has said that. I certainly haven't. All I have done is say their customer service, in my experience, is exemplary. A very different thing, unless one reads what one wants into any statement.

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Just another one of my attempts at a bit of humor which failed I suppose. It was another dig at all those protesters at OWS that are so d@mn tired of corporate profits, yet talk on their iphones, twitter on their ipads, and listen to their ipods. I just find that too freaking funny for words. But maybe that's just me?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

It is my business to have an opinion on someone. Saying that I should not allow the fact of someone being a **** to bother me is akin to suggesting that I should have no emotions, whether positive or negative, at all.

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Don't get me wrong, if the guy is a ****, hate him all you want. But hate him for that reason. To hate him because he's got more than you is plain jealousy, and I find jealousy to be a waste of time.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Do you believe it wrong to criticise in any way anyone's remuneration in the private sector?

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Not really. You can criticize what someone makes all you want. But if you continue to buy from the business they work for, then I reserve the right to call you a hypocrite. And if you call for some sort of government intervention to make sure he makes less, I'll fight you at every turn.

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Originally Posted by Eki

When you have more than you can spend in your own life time.

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What is wrong with wanting to provide for your children and grandchildren? Or, what if I earn more than I can spend in my lifetime, and donate the rest to charity? (see Bill Gates)

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

You see, despite my views on the private sector, I don't have a problem with people having that much money per se so long as they have earned it in a legal manner. Just don't expect me to automatically respect people on the grounds of their wealth.

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On this, I think we agree 100%

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

What I do object to is the growing gap between richest and poorest,

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This contradicts your last statement. Do you think people should earn all they can or don't you? Do you believe in personal responsibility? Do you think there should be some mechanism that narrows the gap between the "rich" and "poor"?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

and those situations in which such earnings are not deserved — if they have been at the helm of a failing business, left and been granted an enormous pay-off, for example.

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Again, on this we agree (at least as you put it here, you'll probably parse it a bit differently in a minute). This is precisely the reason I am against bailouts. Let the f'ers go down with the ship. Make them learn a lesson.

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Originally Posted by Eki

I didn't mean to have just enough money to see them through life, I meant enough to buy everything they can imagine of what they can use in their life time like, fancy houses they live in, fancy cars they drive, fancy yachts they sail on, fancy food they can eat, around the world trips they travel, etc.. When they have money to buy more houses they can live in, more cars they can drive, more yachts they can sail, more around the world trips they have time to travel and more fancy food they can eat, etc., then they have too much money. It's like if you have enough nuclear weapons to destroy the earth, it's enough. If you have enough nuclear weapons to destroy the world multiple times, then it's too much.

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Why am I not surprised that your entire view of wealth and economics is based totally on the disgusting emotion known as jealousy?