Should f1 run coupes?

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

No, I don't believe it is. You say that some people cannot make a reasonable argument, and yet you talk about "the moaners...whinging like bitches". That's not a good way to characterise those you disagree with.

Anyway...Your argument seems straightforward: Introducing closed cockpits would improve safety.

What is the safety record of other racing series that have closed cockpits such as saloon cars and sports cars? Is it measurably better than F1?

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Comapring Apples to Oranges though isn't it - the major problem of Daniel's argument was an odd straw man: Look at this sportscar accident, if that had been F1 they wouldn't have walked away.

F1 and Sportscars aren't comparable for a number of factors. Then it descended into "F1 has to be open wheel" arguments which sort of missed the entire crux of the matter: safety. F1 as it stands today is safer than its ever been and you can't legislate for every single factor than may or may not occur during a 2 hour race.

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Originally Posted by I am evil Homer

Comapring Apples to Oranges though isn't it - the major problem of Daniel's argument was an odd straw man: Look at this sportscar accident, if that had been F1 they wouldn't have walked away.

F1 and Sportscars aren't comparable for a number of factors. Then it descended into "F1 has to be open wheel" arguments which sort of missed the entire crux of the matter: safety. F1 as it stands today is safer than its ever been and you can't legislate for every single factor than may or may not occur during a 2 hour race.

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I guess you're new to F1 and open wheel racing then? What about Henry Surtees or Felipe Massa? If you take the time to look at the video you'll see that Henry would have almost certainly survived his incident if an jet style canopy were fitted. Massa probably would have walked away from his incident also, rather than taking months to recouperate.

Daniel,

What is your position on karting and safety, just as a amatter of interest?

Daniel, while you're thinking about that would you care to answer my question as well.

Is the safety record of other racing series that have closed cockpits such as saloon cars and sports cars measurably better than F1?

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Daniel,

What is your position on karting and safety, just as a amatter of interest?

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How much do kart tyres/wheels weigh?

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Originally Posted by Daniel

How much do kart tyres/wheels weigh?

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I have no idea, but that wasn't the question, was it?

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Daniel, while you're thinking about that would you care to answer my question as well.

Is the safety record of other racing series that have closed cockpits such as saloon cars and sports cars measurably better than F1?

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That sort of question is impossible to answer and the answer itself would be misleading. Another series may have a lower budget, may run on tracks which are less safe, may have less skilled drivers.......

The fact that the FIA is looking at this suggests that the FIA see some merit in having an enclosed cockpit and tbh that means more than the opinions of some people on a forum.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Another series may have a lower budget, may run on tracks which are less safe.

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:confused: Are you linking budgets to safety now, and are you suggesting unsafe tracks are allowed........ :Zowey Cavey:

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Originally Posted by henners88

I'd say a kilo to a kilo and a half per wheel. Bear in mind that karts can do 80mph and have no seat belts and a human body being flung into a tyre wall at that speed is more dangerous than most forms of motorsport. I would guess more people have died karting in the last 10 years than in 30 years of F1, but thats a guess.

I do think its abit rich of you to call people like me moaners because we enjoy watching open cockpit racing and don't have the answers that you want to hear. I've given detailed reasons for my stance yet earlier in this thread you mocked me and told me my answers were not good enough. You also tried to act as moderator at one point I do believe. Lets take this latest news for what it is and take interest in the possibility. I do think canopies will restrict the drivers view, steam up and cause more harm than good if I'm honest. Tear off strips on windscreens might be impossible too so I'd be interested to hear how drivers can keep their field of vision clear with these new methods.

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The Le Mans prototypes have tear off strips. That said you'd need a wiper to run in the rain possibly.

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Originally Posted by henners88

I'm sure the teams could come up with some pretty ingenious wiper designs seeing how much care is taken to make an F1 car as aerodynamic as possible. Plus with the cars being so streamline with immense downforce, small objects like wipers would have to be fixed with great care or we'd also have an opening for more objects causing danger whilst racing. For example wipers going through drivers windscreens lol. I'm sure we'll see more on this in the coming weeks and they won't be as ridiculous as they sound or look in the testing vid. :)

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Of course. I somehow doubt we'll be seeing this next year or the year after if it ever does come to F1. By which time I'm sure that everything that should be taken into consideration will have been taken into consideration.

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Originally Posted by henners88

I'm sure the teams could come up with some pretty ingenious wiper designs seeing how much care is taken to make an F1 car as aerodynamic as possible. Plus with the cars being so streamline with immense downforce, small objects like wipers would have to be fixed with great care or we'd also have an opening for more objects causing danger whilst racing. For example wipers going through drivers windscreens lol. I'm sure we'll see more on this in the coming weeks and they won't be as ridiculous as they sound or look in the testing vid. :)

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I didn't see any kind of wipers on driver helmets until now. The right shape is more than enough for getting the water away from the windshield especially at speed.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Is the safety record of other racing series that have closed cockpits such as saloon cars and sports cars measurably better than F1?

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Yep, it is.

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Originally Posted by henners88

And curved windscreen's on single seaters have proved problematic in the past as the cars are not wide enough to allow a curve that does not distort the field of view. Obviously if there was a quick fix to such problems we would have seen better results by now and windscreens have been considered since the 60's. We won't know anymore until its trialled.

PS: Could you share with us these 'wipers on helmets' you've seen? I'm curious as that sounds interesting. :)

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How could I if they don't exist?! English seems to be a problem for the Brits around here. :rolleyes:

Anyway back to your previous insinuation, why would they need wipers on a F1 canopy?
And if the rain is no problem with the curvature of the helmet visor why would it be on a canopy with the same curvature?

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Originally Posted by henners88

These windscreens were used in the 60's in Formula Two but were scrapped due to complications and not being effective. Times have moved on and materials have moved on greatly but glare and dirt gathering on a screen that is difficult to clean is a problem that will be difficult to solve IMO.

For reference:

http://www.carlosghys.be/photographs..._3_400x316.jpg

http://www.tcnj.edu/~edelbach/ring67/ferrari-f2.jpg

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50 years of progress will help though

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Originally Posted by ioan

And if the rain is no problem with the curvature of the helmet visor why would it be on a canopy with the same curvature?

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Ever worn a helmet in the rain ioan? The visor gets covered in water quickly and glare IS a problem, a very serious one.

Bikers and F1 drivers can wipe away the rain, in fact most riding gloves have a leather strip on the index finger to allow just that. F1 drivers also get the usual tear-offs too.

A canopy would need a wiper system in the rain or would quickly become unusable.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Ever worn a helmet in the rain ioan? The visor gets covered in water quickly and glare IS a problem, a very serious one.

Bikers and F1 drivers can wipe away the rain, in fact most riding gloves have a leather strip on the index finger to allow just that. F1 drivers also get the usual tear-offs too.

A canopy would need a wiper system in the rain or would quickly become unusable.

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To be honest at speed and with the surface of the canopy being so streamlines I don't see it as a huge problem. But it certainly needs to be looked at.

Theres been moore fatal accidents i the Le Mans racing. I don´t know what you are talking about.

The thing about this is where does it all end?

We all recognise that an activity such as motorsport can never be 100% safe for everyone involved. In these risk averse days the removal of all risk seems to be the aim. On the face of it this is very laudable. Clearly no-one wants to see people injured or killed.

Is the end solution to have drivers logged into their computers in their tax-haven homes and competing in on-line racing? Anyone could login and spectate (Bernie will of course charge a fee!!) and just think...we could go back to the 'golden era' and have have the drivers racing on classic circuits in classic cars!!

Safety would no longer be a concern for anyone. Marvellous!!!!

All a load of nonsense of course, but the point is - how far do we go down this road?

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

The thing about this is where does it all end?

We all recognise that an activity such as motorsport can never be 100% safe for everyone involved. In these risk averse days the removal of all risk seems to be the aim. On the face of it this is very laudable. Clearly no-one wants to see people injured or killed.

Is the end solution to have drivers logged into their computers in their tax-haven homes and competing in on-line racing? Anyone could login and spectate (Bernie will of course charge a fee!!) and just think...we could go back to the 'golden era' and have have the drivers racing on classic circuits in classic cars!!

Safety would no longer be a concern for anyone. Marvellous!!!!

All a load of nonsense of course, but the point is - how far do we go down this road?

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Precisely.

As I said earlier, if we're really serious about risk in motorsport lets ban the whole thing.

There have been no circuit racing fatalities in Switzerland since 1955. Now thats what I call safe!

Reports are starting to come out now about the rejection of this idea .

Reasons are said to be the difficulty of extraction and worries about fire , in the event of a collision and/or roll-over .

One thing we didn't think of that apparently was discussed , was the potential for debris ricochetting off the canopies into the crowd .
It doesn't seem like much of an additional concern to me , as things can deflect off that area of the car regardless of whether it is "canopied" or not .

Reminds me of a joke :
What's the difference between a poor Scot and a rich one ?
The rich one has a canopy over his bed , and the poor one has a can-o-pee under his .

Too off-topic , or perhaps even "racist" ?
Sorry in advance .

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Originally Posted by henners88

Something else to look at would be the behaviour of water on the canopies when travelling at low speed behind a safety car as we have seen lately that drivers have difficulty seeing as it is. Would races be run in the wet if cars were unable to use viable windscreen wipers? Canopies that rely on water running off at speed would fail if we had another race like Canada where cars are travelling at 50mph for several laps IMO. I hope this is addressed as I would hate to see a race red flagged at every incident in the wet that needed a safety car.

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Rain-X: Outsmart the Elements | Wiper Blades, Windshield Treatments, Weather Bug and Tar repellent products for your car, Weatherbeater, Latitude, weather, glass, vehicle, visibility

Works at 35 on my car and bike helmet, inside and out. Rain isn't the problem IMHO, the distortion caused by such a heavily contoured windscreen would be. Sure, they could use flat 'glass or a flatter profile, but the aerodynamicists would scream. Offshore powerboats have used open top F5 and F16 canopies for years now, but that is a huge canopy compared to what would be necessary for an F1 car, and even with an open top, I can tell you from personal experience they are HOT! wearing a full helmet and firesuit in a boat. it would be ungodly in a small F1 chassis.

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Originally Posted by nigelred5

Rain-X: Outsmart the Elements | Wiper Blades, Windshield Treatments, Weather Bug and Tar repellent products for your car, Weatherbeater, Latitude, weather, glass, vehicle, visibility

Works at 35 on my car and bike helmet, inside and out. Rain isn't the problem IMHO, the distortion caused by such a heavily contoured windscreen would be. Sure, they could use flat 'glass or a flatter profile, but the aerodynamicists would scream. Offshore powerboats have used open top F5 and F16 canopies for years now, but that is a huge canopy compared to what would be necessary for an F1 car, and even with an open top, I can tell you from personal experience they are HOT! wearing a full helmet and firesuit in a boat. it would be ungodly in a small F1 chassis.

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Running air conditioning wouldn't be too hard.

Again, this is something which couldn't simply be implemented in 12 months or even 2 years.

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Originally Posted by henners88

It would certainly add extra weight and slow the cars down I suppose. The FIA would support that.

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Would it? I would imagine that the current cars are ballasted.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Ever worn a helmet in the rain ioan? The visor gets covered in water quickly and glare IS a problem, a very serious one.

Bikers and F1 drivers can wipe away the rain, in fact most riding gloves have a leather strip on the index finger to allow just that. F1 drivers also get the usual tear-offs too.

A canopy would need a wiper system in the rain or would quickly become unusable.

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Do they have wipers on their helmet visors? No they don't.
Did you hear drivers ask for wipers on their helmet visors? I didn't.
So why would an even more streamlined canopy need a wiper?

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Originally Posted by Mia 01

Theres been moore fatal accidents i the Le Mans racing. I don´t know what you are talking about.

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Did you check the number of cars and drivers taking part in Le Mans?

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Running air conditioning wouldn't be too hard.

Again, this is something which couldn't simply be implemented in 12 months or even 2 years.

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They sure need time for it but it can be done properly, no question about it.
On top of it it is time for F1 to move on and catch up with the times.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Do they have wipers on their helmet visors? No they don't.
Did you hear drivers ask for wipers on their helmet visors? I didn't.
So why would an even more streamlined canopy need a wiper?

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I'll explain this in simple terms.

In an open cockpit the helmet visor gets wet if it rains.

With a helmet visor, one can use your own finger to wipe away excess water. This negates the need for a wiper system to be installed on helmets. I'm sure this isn't that difficult a concept to understand. Hands really are quite versatile things I find.

It is rather more difficult to use ones hand to clean the canopy whilst driving a single seater vehicle at high speeds. Hence why a canopy will need a wiper system.

You ought to remember that given diffusers and whatnot, racecars throw up an incredible amount of spray, meaning that racecars are subjected to a lot more waterspray than conventional roadcars are. A highly curved streamlined canopy might reduce the amount of water that sticks to it but not all, and then it would be extremely vulnerable to glare.

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Originally Posted by henners88

I was thinking along the lines of cars having KERS, and an air conditioning system (not light) not to mention the car being wider to accomodate a flat windscreen that will give the driver a better view when cornering.

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It sure isn't light however they do not need an AC as big as the one in road cars given that they only need to cool about 1/5th or less of air volume compared to what you have in a road car.
And to be honest I believe that easiest is to properly isolate the cockpit from the engine compartment and use an even smaller AC.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

I'll explain this in simple terms.

In an open cockpit the helmet visor gets wet if it rains.

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I wonder how did you figure that out! LOL

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

With a helmet visor, one can use your own finger to wipe away excess water. This negates the need for a wiper system to be installed on helmets. I'm sure this isn't that difficult a concept to understand. Hands really are quite versatile things I find.

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And how often did you see drivers wipe their visors with their hands during a wet race?! :\

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

It is rather more difficult to use ones hand to clean the canopy whilst driving a single seater vehicle at high speeds. Hence why a canopy will need a wiper system.

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No one suggested that this is needed, other than you.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

You ought to remember that given diffusers and whatnot, racecars throw up an incredible amount of spray, meaning that racecars are subjected to a lot more waterspray than conventional roadcars are. A highly curved streamlined canopy might reduce the amount of water that sticks to it but then it would be extremely vulnerable to glare.

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The slower they go the less water is raised by the car in front, the faster they go the easier the water flows away from the canopy and visibility improves.
Looks like a non problem to me to be honest, in simple terms like yours. :p

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Originally Posted by ioan

And how often did you see drivers wipe their visors with their hands during a wet race?! :\

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Errr quite often...

Sorry but your 'arguments' merely suggest you don't have experience of using helmets.

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Originally Posted by ioan

No one suggested that this is needed, other than you.

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Thats right, only myself. Oh BTW isn't it odd that every closed cockpit all-weather racecar ever built has happened to have windscreen wipers? Must be for decoration since you deem them unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by ioan

The slower they go the less water is raised by the car in front, the faster they go the easier the water flows away from the canopy and visibility improves. Looks like a non problem to me to be honest, in simple terms like yours. :p

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Great in theory. In practice you might find that water doesn't instantly disappear at high speeds. Check onboard footage in heavy rain, it takes time for water to flow off glass even at high speeds.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Did you check the number of cars and drivers taking part in Le Mans?

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Once a year race v 16-20 race championship.......

Comparing apples with butt plugs methinks..... ;)

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Once a year race v 16-20 race championship.......

Comparing apples with butt plugs methinks..... ;)

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Just remember how many hours that race runs for and the fact that it runs in the dark too.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

And get ready for the moaners to start whinging like bitches about how the sport is ruined because the drivers are better protected.

Thanks for the link Henners :)

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You've been whining for over 1/4 of the total posts on the thread, does it irritate you that others will follow the childish attitude that only their own opinion can be the right one?

I've yet to see a single poster on this thread state that the sport is ruined if drivers are better protected, and most have given their reasonings for not wanting to see enclosed cockpits. Quite a few have asked if you have any valid statistics or other information showing closed cockpit racing is safer, yet you haven't shown any such data if it exists.

So do us all a favor and quit acting like a child, using the internet to toss about insults you'd likely be scared to death to deliver to most people in person. You're simply not impressing anyone by thinking you should be the only one allowed to have an opinion, and consistently breaching forum regulations with insults if you don't get your way.




And am I the only one that's been around aircraft or other canopies? When you start dealing with shields made for high impact ratings they aren't exactly lightweight. Tack on the AC unit compressor, condensor, etc, etc, and it will be without doubt a new "formula".

On the up side, they can add at least one or two more buttons to the steering wheel for the AC controls and wipers. Can we add seat heaters too? :)

Nothing wrong with a canopy if you can make it work and not roast the driver and be able to be jettisoned easily without creating other problems.

The reality is, the problem's that the canopy would solve would be compounded by all the other problems it brings.

Racing is dangerous, suck it up and get used to it. They are doing all they can to protect drivers, it isn't as if no one in the FIA cares. The HANS and design features to protect the driver have made the modern f1 car about as safe as can be expected.

If you can give me a canopy that doesn't create more issues than the odd incident injuring a driver without one, well then maybe you have something, but it hasn't been demonstrated yet.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

You've been whining for over 1/4 of the total posts on the thread, does it irritate you that others will follow the childish attitude that only their own opinion can be the right one?

I've yet to see a single poster on this thread state that the sport is ruined if drivers are better protected, and most have given their reasonings for not wanting to see enclosed cockpits. Quite a few have asked if you have any valid statistics or other information showing closed cockpit racing is safer, yet you haven't shown any such data if it exists.

So do us all a favor and quit acting like a child, using the internet to toss about insults you'd likely be scared to death to deliver to most people in person. You're simply not impressing anyone by thinking you should be the only one allowed to have an opinion, and consistently breaching forum regulations with insults if you don't get your way.




And am I the only one that's been around aircraft or other canopies? When you start dealing with shields made for high impact ratings they aren't exactly lightweight. Tack on the AC unit compressor, condensor, etc, etc, and it will be without doubt a new "formula".

On the up side, they can add at least one or two more buttons to the steering wheel for the AC controls and wipers. Can we add seat heaters too? :)

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Do yourself a favour and stop posting on here, it is not me who started with the childishness, it annoys me that people can't have a sensible discussion but I'm not throwing my toys out of the pram like you.

I came in here with a genuine question which the FIA were working on probably before I even posted it, the main argument that people have is that things are the way they are so shouldn't be changed. Tbh that's a stupid argument and anyone with half a brain knows it. Now you're saying that somehow having a compressor, condensor suddenly makes it a different series. What about all the silly winglets, did that make it a different series, what about KERS, what about DRS? What about double deck diffusers? I'm sorry but the status quo argument is a silly argument. I've enjoyed it when people have suggested geniune issues like heat, or perhaps fire or being stuck in the car. Now tbh I don't see how a drive can get out of an upside down F1 car now anyway (especially with HANS) so personally I don't feel it's a problem but I'm sure the FIA will run their tests and make sure before they even think about suggesting this to teams. :)

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

If you can give me a canopy that doesn't create more issues than the odd incident injuring a driver without one, well then maybe you have something, but it hasn't been demonstrated yet.

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Like I said we have the best and most inovative engineers in the world. I certainly think it would be stupid to institute something which is almost certain to cause further danger due to the fact that the drivers are more fatigued due to heat or due to other dangers. No one wants this and that's why it's great that the FIA are testing this and not simply forcing it upon the teams.

The little windscreen seemed to do a decent enough job and obviously doesn't have the downsides of a full canopy, how do people feel about that?

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Originally Posted by henners88

It does a good job in deflecting objects but I feel is dangerous as it obstructs the drivers view. The driver looks down the nose of the car and with a small curved screen in the way, I don't see how it will act as anything other than a distraction. It will also affect the way the driver lines up the front of the car IMO.

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Well lets see what it's actually like in a test before we say that it definitely obstructs the drivers view.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Do yourself a favour and stop posting on here, it is not me who started with the childishness, it annoys me that people can't have a sensible discussion but I'm not throwing my toys out of the pram like you.

I came in here with a genuine question which the FIA were working on probably before I even posted it, the main argument that people have is that things are the way they are so shouldn't be changed. Tbh that's a stupid argument and anyone with half a brain knows it. Now you're saying that somehow having a compressor, condensor suddenly makes it a different series. What about all the silly winglets, did that make it a different series, what about KERS, what about DRS? What about double deck diffusers? I'm sorry but the status quo argument is a silly argument. I've enjoyed it when people have suggested geniune issues like heat, or perhaps fire or being stuck in the car. Now tbh I don't see how a drive can get out of an upside down F1 car now anyway (especially with HANS) so personally I don't feel it's a problem but I'm sure the FIA will run their tests and make sure before they even think about suggesting this to teams. :)

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Quit your whining.

Only if you ignore the sensible posts with those users valid reasons do the posts become simply about change. Not a single poster has stated they they don't care at all about driver safety, they simply stated concerns beyond that.

I stated the open wheel aspect was my biggest concern, and listed other concerns with the canopy. I don't want change that adds weight and complexity and can lessen the performance of the cars, especially unless it's proven (not speculated) that the changes will make a real increase in safety.

FIA tests fighter-jet canopy for use in Formula 1
FIA tests fighter-jet canopy for use in Formula 1

http://www.hindustantimes.com/F1-dri...e1-722346.aspx

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The Formula One governing body has rejected the proposals to fit car cockpits with F-16 type safety canopies. Many Formula One teams were considering to use poly- carbonate screens to provide added
protection following Felipe Massa's near fatal smash with a flying suspension spring

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There's another point against , that I read in a quote from Marc Surer .

What about a KERS failure , where the vapours get into the cockpit ?