Oh, you were on about huff I guess. Fluff, cuff, tough, rough, luff......Quote:
Originally Posted by donKey jote
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Oh, you were on about huff I guess. Fluff, cuff, tough, rough, luff......Quote:
Originally Posted by donKey jote
Exactly, this is a lesson we learned from Valencia. If you don't obbey the rules but the fine imposed is less than what is gained, then let's not follow the rules. The price for Alonso being again a WC contender is 100k,so they broke the rule (like everybody does) and thats all.Quote:
Originally Posted by eu
My two pennyworth...
1. Considering the potential rewards, a fine of this size is insignificant and will not dissuade teams from similar actions in the future.
2. A suitable punishment IMHO would have been to dock the constructors points AND swap Massa's and Alonso's results about. This way there would be no advantage to breaking the rules.
3. Teams in this situation usually rattle on about this being a team sport. My response is that swapping two drivers positions does not affect the number of points awarded to the team.
4. F1 needs to decide if it is a team sport, an individual sport, or both. If both then the drivers should be allowed to race for the drivers championship. The team should only concern itself with the constructors championship.
Regards
d
As an F1 driver (not personally) the first person you need to beat is your team mate. Generally, being faster in practice and qualifying demonstrates your superior speed, but this is nothing without racecraft.
If you can't beat your teammate by overtaking him in a genuine manouvre, then I consider that a poor show, and reflects badly on the driver.
Add to this the amount of shyte that has stuck to Onslo over the years, and it appears he is only capable being the best if unchallenged.
Yup, you don't suppose the Santander money comes with a caveat do you?Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmm - donuts
Maybe 'our man must win at all costs'? :s mokin:
Meh. Couldn't really give a toss about it, team orders are as much a part of F1 as wheels and engines. McLaren would do the same, Red Bull would do the same (Christian Horner has got a lot of nerve whingeing after the stunt that RBR pulled with Webber's wing). The teams all want their driver to be the World Champion so they do what it takes. Those 5 points could be huge by the end of the season, Ferrari know it, Massa knows it and Christian Horner knows it.
Found this funny for some reason :p :
http://twitter.com/Formula1game/status/19568881267
If Alonso was faster than Massa he should have overtaken him. Instead he whined and look what has happened.
Alonso also whined that he was faster than Fisichella in the Canadian GP back in 2005(?).
Is the man afraid to overtake a teammate? Do teammates have an inherent need to keep their driving partner behind them, thus we see teammates crashing into each other more often than when drivers from different teams fight for position?
Ferrari made a pig's breakfast of this race when they had PR gold staring them in the face had Massa won on the anniversary of his terrible accident at the Hungaroring.
you just had to pop off with "Chopper".....Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
OH, please, do not refer to vettel, as Chopper!!!
That is such an insult to webber, your hero, as well as to the elder chopschuie, and you show such ignorance unworthy of a poster when you do that..... :D
Great, I loved it.....Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Fact is everyone is doing it, but none are being obivous, until Ferrari comes along and cuts a big fart
My hero? Sorry to urinate on your embers, but Webber aint my hero.Quote:
Originally Posted by markabilly
Simple, init though?Quote:
Originally Posted by N. Jones
I think that Ferrari will experience a lot of rancour because...... :pQuote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
......their Spanish sponsor is a banker??????Quote:
Originally Posted by Mintexmemory
First you think that vettel qualifies as a chopper....Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
then u claim webber is no hero
As a brit, you need plenty of this until you see the light
:arrows:
and perhaps a little kool aid might help :beer:
Probably.Quote:
Originally Posted by markabilly
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85573
Whitmarsh again a true gentleman. I can believe how classy this guy really is. After Ron, McLaren look totally changed. It's incredible.
Yeah it is. And now, instead of Ferrari being thrown in good light because of a Massa win after his horrible accident they are now thrown into bad light because of team orders.Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
It's all very sad...
Quote:
Originally Posted by F1boat
Hahaha, sure enuff... :rolleyes: ......that is funny...what he is going to tell ferrari is youse guys better figure out how to do team orders right without getting caught, without screwing up the game for the rest of us, or we will all pay the price at the endQuote:
"That is my decision and that is what we want to do. Others do what they want to do, and it is for the FIA and Ferrari to determine what they think is right. We were racing our two guys until the end of the race."
when hamilton jumped Button during the pitstops, as Lewis had a superfast stop and Button did not, they were immediately on the radio to Button, once again, telling him he must conserve fuel, aggressively conserve fuel.....and then towards the end, said to the contrary when they were much further apart and race pretty much over...........
You would prefer it if they said 'dump fuel, you are way too heavy'?Quote:
Originally Posted by markabilly
If you save fuel when you are not under threat, you will have more chance of successfully fending off an attacker if that scenario arrives later in the race.
Fairytale stories are rare. Leave that to Hollywood.Quote:
Originally Posted by N. Jones
Save fuel = hold positionQuote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
It could mean that, but...Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
Save fuel = Save fuel.
Imagine that?
I don't see what all the fuss is about and I'm a Massa supporter. Alonso is the only one of the Ferrari drivers with a decent chance of winning the 2010 WDC and Ferrari were trying to get him closer to the top of the driver standings. We don't have to like it and I feel for Massa, but it is a team sport after all.
Team orders still exist, just because the FIA says it is illegal now does not mean it doesn't happen anymore.
And yes, I expect to take a lashing for the above comment :p :
Yep, they do. But only Ferrari are short sighted enough to blatantly flout the regulation.Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
at the time, lewis was right in front of button upon lewis exit from pits and might well have attacked lewis....but the message was delivered....of course maybe it meant save fuel and it was just coincidence that it was before the midrace point, and lewis was just now in frontQuote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
At Istanbul Button attacks Hamilton and afterwards is adamantly told to save fuel and suddenly backs. After the race it turns out Button had more fuel than Hamilton left in the tank and therefore enough for another attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
Robbed of a racing spectacle - going by the logic of the majority after yesterday.
Arguably "saving fuel" is far more explicit than a being told a team mate is quicker than you but at the end of the day its down to the driver to interpret those commands.
1982 San Marino GP Villenueve and Pironi were told to slow down and there were two different interpretations. Pironi apparantly stole the race from Gilles and, ironically enough, has been the villain ever since.
Both drivers told to save fuel, Hamilton even questions his engineer to check Jenson told same thing. Lewis takes the 4 apex turn 8? a little too slowly, Jenson sees the car in front going a lot slower than normal, so takes the chance to pass.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
Lewis picks up the pace, retakes, then they settle into a rhythm.
JB had 1/2 a lap I think it was more fuel than Lewis at the end - not a significant amount.
In fact, the only juicy radio comment they could find to air to the public was Lewis asking about JB being told to save fuel also.
No conspiracy there.
If so minded the fia could request evidence backing up requests to save fuel. I doubt Ferrari have any evidence which explains yesterday's race fixing.
I'm willing to bet that you would view it differently if Ferrari or another team had told a driver to 'save fuel'....not that you'd admit such bias of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
Depends, all the facts in the particular case of McLaren at Turkey are out, and the situation is very clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jan Yeo
Sorry there is no meat left on the bones for you to pick, but that's just the way it is, as Bruce H would sing.
No lashing I'm afraid but would like to offer my opinion on all the "Fuss".Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
For me there is 3 sections to the answer.
1. What's the big deal about team orders?
2. What impact did Ferrari's decision have on the sport?
3. What should happen now?
1. Team orders are banned and hopefully nobody here is stupid enough to believe Ferrari didn't employ them.
We can discuss until the cows come home if Team orders should be banned or not but at the moment they are a fundamental part of the sporting regulations and were proactively and wilfully broken in a premeditated manner.
2. I think this has had a terrible effect on the sport. This year has been a great one with what seems to be fans returning to watch the sport. However, these new fans along with us old established supporters believe we have been hoodwinked and cheated.
The man that should have won had to give his victory to someone that didn't earn it. People think that the sport is a farce and a major sporting event has been corrupted by blatant cheating.
F1 has obviously been brought into disrepute.
3. So, what should happen now?
This is such a difficult thing to answer as the rule is such a stupid one. It would seem logical that sometimes it's necessary to employ preferential treatment but should only be when a driver has no chance of winning the championship. If these positions were reversed, then Massa would be 10 points closer.
So far, the FIA have given a fine which is meaningless but what else can the FIA do? You cannot reverse positions and disqualifying the two Ferrari's would seem so unfair but the fact remains that serious harm has been done to the sport. Not only that, there is also questions being raised about legality and international Law. You cannot fix an international sporting event and run the risk of being arrested and tried. If I had money on Massa, I would like some answers.
Why, oh why, did they do it so obviously??? I know other teams do it but this was like sticking 2 fingers up?
At the moment, the credibility of the sport is in the dirt and this is not finished with yet.
They robbed the team .Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
They should give it back .
Lousy excuse.Quote:
Originally Posted by eu
The real difference beeing that it was the last race of the year and Massa knew he had ZERO chances to win the title, so it was easy to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkmoon
Yesterday both drivers were in the running for the WDC, Ferrari didn't get any advantage from this move, however they blew Massa away exactly one year after he was 1 inch from death in one of these scarlet cars.
How do you think that he feels about yesterday after being so loyal to these scums for such a long time?
You're right he's much classier then Luca and Stefano will ever be.Quote:
Originally Posted by F1boat
Quote from skc:
1. What's the big deal about team orders?
2. What impact did Ferrari's decision have on the sport?
3. What should happen now?
1. used every race
2. none , used every race .
3. legalise team orders
Every order , by it's very nature , from a team , is a team order , and will affect the result of the race .
Therefore , it is completely illogical to attempt to employ such a rule .
It's pretty simple .
The way in which the rule is actually used is , however , another thing .
It seems only a matter of how popular the driver involved is , or how un-popular a team is , that gets the press going , that gets the fans stirred , that prompts the FIA to fine a tactic all the teams employ .
It's simply stupid that it is a matter of the degree of public dissatisfaction that gets one fined and investigated .
Ferrari had to know they would take some stick for letting Alonso pass .
The had just seen the same dour face on a winner for the Bulls , made dour because only a few points had cost him a wing .
30 points , when a victory is tough , and worth only 25 , is simply not enough to have you take the number one status .
The dour face cost them $100,000 .
The million back in 2002 wasn't for the team orders as those were legal back then.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
Let's face it, all the above discussion just goes to prove that there is no effective way to control team orders.
I would think that if the situation were to come up again at Ferrari you would see a different scenario. This time instead of ordering Massa to let Alonso by they would simply have a problem with an errant wheel during his pit stop. Not much, just a few seconds would be enough.
So where does that leave us?
If I were a driver facing such a decision, I would have to decide if I wanted to be the number 2 on a top team or whether I wanted to actually race as hard as I could for a lesser team. You won't win a championship either way but you might have a better feeling about yourself and your career.
The only way I can see it ending is if every driver agrees to the same contract stipulations outlining that there is no number 1 or 2 and that they can race each other. Don't worry about teammates taking each other out-do away with the constructors title and it won't matter. Remember that the constructors title didn't enter the picture until 1958. Prior to that there were some hair raising battles within teams. If the drivers are deciding their own chances for a title you just may see some interesting racing.
I know that this will never happen, since it is no longer a sport but a business and the "win at all cost" attitude extends to the contracts that the lawyers dream up. All I know is that I would not feel good about winning a championship knowing another driver was told to move over. If you are a champion you need to find a way to win and prove it on the track, not in the boardroom.
I think you're missing the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
1. They are illegal. Whether they should be or not is immaterial. All that matters is you cannot do it.
2. If you cannot see the considerable impact this has had on the sport, then I am honestly not going to try and convince you otherwise.
3. I don't see how they can effectively can police the ban on team orders. As you say, it is widespread. The only difference,and why there is uproar, is that Ferrari were so utterly stupid in how they implemented their race fixing.
I think you're barking up the wrong tree with your victimisation whine though. It wasn't because it was Ferrari. It was because it was blatant cheating in front of Millions of people; many who have been left disillusioned.