Hamilton Stripped of Win - Official

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Originally Posted by Daniel

What a load of rubbish. Lewis wasn't forced off the road. he went for a gap where that closed up. Simple as that. If Lewis was forced off the track I'm sure he would have said so but he didn't.......

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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70405

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Q. Talk us through that passing incident at the last chicane when you let Kimi past but then passed him again?

LH: Yeah, I mean to be honest he pushed me wide. I was a little bit ahead and I was on the outside of turn one. He could have been fair as I had no room. He pushed me to the point where I would either have been on the kerb and crashed into him or have to go on the escape route, so I went on the escape route. I understood I had to let him past, so I did. I got in his tow and he was ducking and diving left and right and I did the same and managed to get back to the inside of him. But then he hit me at the apex of the corner but I think I was pretty much gone from there which was good.

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Originally Posted by dwf1

Big news. I've just watched the final few laps......Nick Heidfeld should win the Belgian GP. As lewis and Massa go on to the final lap, Massa obviously cuts the chicane (You can tell this from the line he takes in the background out of the final chicane!!) This means he got an advantage by cutting the chicane instead of hitting the wall even if it was a mistake. I mean if he had hit the wall or spun he could have been out so thats gaining an advantage is it not???

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:laugh:

Do you think the FIA will consider it?

Does the Pope s**t in the woods ;)

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Originally Posted by Daniel

What a load of rubbish. Lewis wasn't forced off the road. he went for a gap where that closed up. Simple as that. If Lewis was forced off the track I'm sure he would have said so but he didn't.......

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he actualy did Daniel

***When the heavens opened, Kimi was a little cautious under braking and I was able to get really close. When I had a look around the outside at the chicane, we almost had an accident, and I needed to steer left to avoid him.***

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Originally Posted by wedge

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70405

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OK I take that part back. Be that as it may Kimi is under no obligation to gift Lewis the place. The person passing has to make the pass stick and Lewis didn't.

Tonieke.... Lewis has to make the pass.....simple as that.

14 people on the poll now say it is justified :s hock: Blood hell :(

Hamilton gained an advantage by cutting the chicane. He then followed the rules and rightly allowed Kimi to retake the position. He then legally overtakes Kimi at the next corner. I dont see what problem the stewards found.

Stupid penalty :down:

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Originally Posted by Daniel

He went off. You can't just make a mistake, go off on the grass and then let the other car by when it suits you.

If Lewis has made the corner and slipstreamed Kimi and made the pass it would have been fine of course. But the thing is he didn't make the corner and he went off and gained a place and then gave it back at his leisure. If you go off there should be a disadvantage and you can't simply let the other car by when it's convenient for you and have a net gain out of the whole thing.

If you look at the incident again you'll see that Lewis made a gain out of the whole thing.

Now that I think of it this is Lewis' second offence for the same thing and although he let Kimi though he might as well not have considering how he did it and I'm actually thinking perhaps he does deserve it.

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That is my question, Lewis was right on his wheel after relinquishing the lead. Is that legit or does he have to give the person a small lead before he attempts to retake the position.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

OK I take that part back. Be that as it may Kimi is under no obligation to gift Lewis the place. The person passing has to make the pass stick and Lewis didn't.

Tonieke.... Lewis has to make the pass.....simple as that.

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Well he did, at the hairpin. But did he only manage to pass at the hairpin because he cut the chicane? Maybe, but did he go off at the chicane because of Kimi? Maybe.

Too many unanswerable questions and too many seconds penalties.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

OK I take that part back. Be that as it may Kimi is under no obligation to gift Lewis the place. The person passing has to make the pass stick and Lewis didn't.

Tonieke.... Lewis has to make the pass.....simple as that.

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I am no longer goin to discuss this..well just end with the words of Lauda..and I think he's in a way better position that any of us to give his thoughts about this "incident"

***But Lauda, the great Austrian driver, spoke on behalf of much of the wider international paddock population.

"This is the worst judgment in the history of F1," he slammed. "The most perverted judgment I have ever seen.

"It's absolutely unacceptable when three functionaries (the stewards) influence the championship like this," Lauda added***

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

OK, lets start with the definition of “an incident”.



Was a driver forced off track? Y/N

Was a driver prevented from a legitimate overtaking maneuver Y/N

Was a driver impeded during overtaking Y/N

Were 2 drivers involved Y/N



I would say that turning into a driver on the inside of a corner when you know he is there thereby forcing him to either crash or go off track is strictly prohibited.

As such, Lewis shouldn’t have had to give the place up BUT HE DID and consequently, relinquished his advantage and momentum to the Ferrari.

He then proceeded to do what he had been threatening and passed him at the next corner by outbreaking Kimi.

So, I ask again. When it’s all stacking up against Kimi, what advantage did Lewis gain.

Momentum?

Last time I checked, slowing down to give the momentum to the car behind was to give up your speed advantage. Unless the rules of physics are re-written by the FIA, then a car needs to be going faster to overtake and therefore have greater momentum.

Or are they pi$$ed because Lewis was driving better in the conditions and outbroke Kimi.

How can outbreaking someone constitute having a speed advantage. Surely we are penalizing him because he was better on the brakes.

Kimi had no answer for Lewis. He was catching him hand over fist and would have nailed him at the chicane if Kimi hadn’t of forced him off track.

He let him past and then outbraked him.

Perhaps the FIA think he just shouldn’t overtake Kimi at all?

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Knock , Lewis or anyone else for that matter , needed to be even with Kimi to assert himself in that chicane . He was not , as , although having braked later , in a position to do so .
He only got a nose in , and as we've seen countless times , he had to make the move to avoid a collision .

You could either say Lewis didn't brake late enough , or that Kimi used his late enough to preclude the move , but , either way , he was unable to pull it off .
I would think that , had there been a wall there , Lewis might have reacted differently , and if we imagine there was , and him backing out slightly earlier , it becomes easy to see , with the short run to La Source , he would still have been trailing the Ferrari out of that hairpin .
He would not have , by virtue of having to follow the Ferrari through the corner , been able to apply the power as early as Kimi .

Simple physics , my friend .
Though he slowed to let the red car through , that dropped him perfectly in the slipstream , set for taking the inside for the hairpin .

If he had braked early , and taken a wider line , he might have been able to get him or at least be close enough to slipstream down the main straight , having negotiated a tighter line out of the second half of the chicane .

It is too bad , because Lewis drove a great race .

I would think a counter-protest would be in order , if McLaren believe that the whole issue was with what Kimi did at the chicane .
But Kimi isn't under investigation .

And , Lewis should have waited for the hill .

The sport relies on stewards who have little or no experience in motor racing to pass judgement on racing incidents based on visual interpretations of video replays (do they have access to telemetry?).

Until this practice changes we will continue to have the outcome of races, indeed championships, decided in this manner.

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Originally Posted by PSfan

Well, I hate to say this, but in order to make sure the champagne and trophies don't end up in the wrong hands at the end of a race, then they would almost have to postpone the celebrations 3 hours every race to make sure the cars adhere to the rules after every race before declaring winners.

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I think it is reasonable to expect any decision that affects the outcome of a race to be made within 10 minutes of the chequered flag. Its not rocket science and quite incredible that there are not guidelines to that effect in place.

If the stewards can't make a decision based on immediately available evidence such as video footage then they should not levy a penalty that affects a race result.

I realise that gambling is not a primary consideration for F1 management but sport betting is a reality and the stewards should be aware that their decisions are under scrutiny because of it. I don't care if Lewis is penalised at the next race but I do care when the current race result appears to be arbitrarily altered.

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Look at the bright side, how often does a result change after the podium celebration? when was the last time (Prior to this weekends race) that it happened? I prefer this to Nascars taking a way points and fining drivers/teams/crewchiefs for cars that won a race that was way outside the rules.

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(They have taken away points in this instance, many many points.)

You are correct in saying that it doesn't happen in F1 very often which is why I am of the opinion that the stewards have made a balls up of this incident. They appear to have levied this penalty without really thinking it through.

There is a LOT of money being traded on F1 races and anyone who backed Lewis is probably justified in questioning the decision.

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Originally I thought it didn't make sense to strip a driver of a win on what was arguably a close call, but the more I look at the replays, the less close it looks to me...

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My personal belief is that the decision to award the race is made when the trophies are handed out and I honestly believe that taking back the trophy once its awarded is a shameful practice. I would also say that levying a penalty that only affects a points finisher is frankly ridiculous. :crazy:

It would be nice to think that any decision to change the result of a race is dealt with openly and expeditiously - I don't believe that either has occurred in this case yet. Just my opinion of course...

:)

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

Well he did, at the hairpin. But did he only manage to pass at the hairpin because he cut the chicane? Maybe, but did he go off at the chicane because of Kimi? Maybe.

Too many unanswerable questions and too many seconds penalties.

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Of course Kimi was very much part of the reason why he went off. But why should Kimi have yielded to a car that was not on the racing line and was not far enough in front to push Kimi wide? There have been a couple of times this year I'ev thought Lewis has been a bit ruthless with regards to the amount of space he's given other drivers but that's racing.....

This certainly puts a damper on what I thought was a brilliant last lap given the conditions. Its begining to sound like Ferrari has the stewards in their pocket. FIA has it in for McLaren.

There were several cars taking excursions in that section. I guess stewards were oblivious to the conditions as well. This is a farse.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

And , Lewis should have waited for the hill .

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But why? AFAIK there is no rule about how long a driver in Hamilton's situation has to wait before attempting a pass again. He allowed Kimi to recover the position as he is required to do and according to Charlie Whiting, an FIA official, that was fine.

The fact that Lewis was better on the brakes into La Source should not be a punishable offence IMHO.

Still, we will see 1) if the FIA allow an appeal to go ahead and 2) what the outcome of any appeal is.

I know I know..i said I would stop about it...But well...just watch this video from last season... Massa's pass at the end ? Did he get punished ? he not even gave back the position...


http://www.f1complete.com/content/view/10104/900/

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Of course Kimi was very much part of the reason why he went off. But why should Kimi have yielded to a car that was not on the racing line and was not far enough in front to push Kimi wide? There have been a couple of times this year I'ev thought Lewis has been a bit ruthless with regards to the amount of space he's given other drivers but that's racing.....

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But 25 seconds????? Do you seriously think that is justified?

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Of course Kimi was very much part of the reason why he went off. But why should Kimi have yielded to a car that was not on the racing line and was not far enough in front to push Kimi wide? There have been a couple of times this year I'ev thought Lewis has been a bit ruthless with regards to the amount of space he's given other drivers but that's racing.....

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I actually agree with you.

The reason I posted the rules (which you are correct in saying that they are rubbish) is to prove the injustice of this all.

I like racing and have no problem with what Kimi done in closing the door. If they were wheel to wheel, then he would have to give him room but their wheels were interlocked instead.

Kimi closed the door and Lewis bailed to avoid an accident. Forget that if there was a barrier there, or a gravel trap or a inflaterable dildo then he wouldn't have gone for it because there wasn't. He had a punt, it didn't come off and good driving all round not to bend 2 cars.

Are we agreed at this point and disagree with the FIA rules?

So, Lewis bailed but made the pass.

If he hadn't given it back, he would have been bang to rights but HE DID.

When he let Kimi past, there was about a cars length between them until he outbraked into the next corner.

Can anyone tell me what advantage being in the slipstream has on Braking? None! Infact, the opposite. It cuts downforce in the dirty air and is one of the big problems in F1.

Come on Daniel. It's BS and you know it.

Look at the rules. There is nothing Lewis has done wrong and solid evidence against Kimi.

Now, I think they fought a great race and deserve applause for the spectacle they gave us. Not penalties and this cr4p.

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Originally Posted by Tonieke

I know I know..i said I would stop about it...But well...just watch this video from last season... Massa's pass at the end ? Did he get punished ? he not even gave back the position...


http://www.f1complete.com/content/view/10104/900/

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Not really much to say. :(

We know it's a fit up but as per normal, there is nothing that can be done as it's a corrupt governing body that favours Ferrari and penalises McLaren for the smallest reason. In fact, they have gone past using reason and are making things up.

Anyone seen "Escape to Victory"

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Originally Posted by ICKE

I dont know if this has already been posted but :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70rXr2Mkq_M

Here is proof that Hamilton did not slow down one bit after cutting that chicane. Just watch and listen, the evidence is clear.

Besides : The race stewards are able to view the telemetry after the race. It's not exactly hard to see if Hamilton did or did not lift his foot from the gas pedal now is it?

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Now thats twisting the facts, did you actually listen to the engine note at all? Hamilton is clearly no where near full throtle coming out of that chicane, as can be heard from how slowly the revs are rising compared to normal, and for a couple dozen meters afterwards as well. You can also see just how crap that Ferrari is on the brakes.

Hamiltons a racer, by no means does he have to let his opponent get clean away, and as far as I know the rules only mention "gaining an advantage" which is quite obviously open to a wide variety of interpritations.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

according to Charlie Whiting, an FIA official, that was fine.

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Charlie Whiting is the FIA Technical director. He is not a race steward.

You might as well say that your granny said it was fine. It makes no effing difference.

But, once again, you look at everything except the actual fact.

Yesterday once again restored my faith in the FIA as the only people suitable to run Formula One. If it wasn't for them, the typical bully-boy deceit and dishonest non-integrity based tactics of Ron Dennis's team would whitewash everything just as they have done the reactionary English media.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

Not really much to say. :(

We know it's a fit up but as per normal, there is nothing that can be done as it's a corrupt governing body that favours Ferrari and penalises McLaren for the smallest reason. In fact, they have gone past using reason and are making things up.

Anyone seen "Escape to Victory"

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Fact is Mclaren, once again, were correctly punished.

last time a result was changed was Brazil when Fisi won and Kimi was handed the trophy

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Originally Posted by Tonieke

I know I know..i said I would stop about it...But well...just watch this video from last season... Massa's pass at the end ? Did he get punished ? he not even gave back the position...


http://www.f1complete.com/content/view/10104/900/

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Kubica is coming back on to the track from just having been off it and forces massa to avoid him by cutting across. Not really a similar situation.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

But why? AFAIK there is no rule about how long a driver in Hamilton's situation has to wait before attempting a pass again. He allowed Kimi to recover the position as he is required to do ...

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Relinquishing a position does not reverse the application of the regulation.

Hamilton could have relinquished positions until the cows came home. The penalty is still valid.

What is questionable is the consistency with which the regulation is applied.

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Originally Posted by Viktory

Kubica is coming back on to the track from just having been off it and forces massa to avoid him by cutting across. Not really a similar situation.

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I think you mean that 4 to 6 seconds, Massa goes off track to maintain a position and after 10 seconds pushes the BMW off the track but Robert maintains his position.

Then Massa gets past after Robert loses momentum by being pushed off track and at 25 seconds, Robert does exactly the same as Massa did by pushing him off.

At 30 seconds, Massa rejoins after retaking the position by going off track and keeps it.

Did Massa get the position by gaining an advantage off track? Pretty obvious really.

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Originally Posted by Viktory

Kubica is coming back on to the track from just having been off it and forces massa to avoid him by cutting across. Not really a similar situation.

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oooh ok LOL..Massa also could have backed of as been said Lewis should have donne not ?..and waited for the straight line to pass Kubica Not ? But nop he took big advantage getting way of the track keeping his momemtum..But ya it's a ferrari..it's not the same situation..I got it now !

No point trying to discuss this.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

I think you mean that 4 to 6 seconds, Massa goes off track to maintain a position and after 10 seconds pushes the BMW off the track but Robert maintains his position.

Then Massa gets past after Robert loses momentum by being pushed off track and at 25 seconds, Robert does exactly the same as Massa did by pushing him off.

At 30 seconds, Massa rejoins after retaking the position by going off track and keeps it.

Did Massa get the position by gaining an advantage off track? Pretty obvious really.

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Huh? Don't tell him what he's saying. He's saying that at the start of the video that Kubica has had an off and pushed Massa off. By your logic Kubica deserves the penalty. You can't have your cake and eat it mate. Don't tell people what they're saying. It's EXTREMELY rude.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Huh? Don't tell him what he's saying. He's saying that at the start of the video that Kubica has had an off and pushed Massa off. By your logic Kubica deserves the penalty. You can't have your cake and eat it mate. Don't tell people what they're saying. It's EXTREMELY rude.

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Thanks, that's what I meant.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Huh? Don't tell him what he's saying. He's saying that at the start of the video that Kubica has had an off and pushed Massa off. By your logic Kubica deserves the penalty. You can't have your cake and eat it mate. Don't tell people what they're saying. It's EXTREMELY rude.

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What good is it to have cake if you can't eat it?????

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Originally Posted by Viktory

No point trying to discuss this.

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Viktory..that last Massa pass is exactly the same situation as yesterday..kubica on the inside..to some that's the racingline so I have been told..so he can defend his position..massa tries to pass him on the outside but Kubica leaves him no room...So like some also told me on here that's whats racing is all about....he (Massa) should have backed off and waited for another opportunaty to make a pass..but nop..massa kept pushing goin way of track to keep his speed and make the pass ? taking a serious advantage by doin so...

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Huh? Don't tell him what he's saying. He's saying that at the start of the video that Kubica has had an off and pushed Massa off. By your logic Kubica deserves the penalty. You can't have your cake and eat it mate. Don't tell people what they're saying. It's EXTREMELY rude.

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If you haven't gathered by now Daniel, I don't give a flying feck what you think but please feel free to bestow such pearls of wisdom as you see fit.

:p

Now, back to subject.

Not only has a 3 time WDC said this is the worst decision in the history of F1 but now Schumacher comes out against it.

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Sep.8 (GMM) Ralf Schumacher, a winner of six grands prix who left formula one at the end of last year, has sided with those who believe FIA officials were wrong to strip Lewis Hamilton of his Belgian grand prix victory. The German, whose elder brother Michael won five world championships with Ferrari, believes the Spa-Francorchamps episode is yet another piece of evidence that the Italian team is favoured by formula one's ruling body.

"Lewis deserved to win but it was taken away," Schumacher, who now races in the German touring car series DTM, wrote in the German newspaper Bild. "To me, it was fair overtaking," he added.

Ralf, 33, said the 2008 championship fight has entered a "crucial phase".

"In my experience, Ferrari has always had priority in formula one, which we have seen in many situations," he insisted.

In the German-speaking world, Schumacher is certainly not a lone voice, with the former triple world champion Niki Lauda on Monday dramatically denouncing the stewards' decision as the worst "in the history of F1".

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Of course, it's only Ralf so what does he know ;)

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

Of course, it's only Ralf so what does he know ;)

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Right, is the opinion of the "real" Schumacher that counts :p :

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Originally Posted by Tonieke

Viktory..that last Massa pass is exactly the same situation as yesterday..kubica on the inside..to some that's the racingline so I have been told..so he can defend his position..massa tries to pass him on the outside but Kubica leaves him no room...So like some also told me on here that's whats racing is all about....he (Massa) should have backed off and waited for another opportunaty to make a pass..but nop..massa kept pushing goin way of track to keep his speed and make the pass ? taking a serious advantage by doin so...

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Yeah well. I have already stated that, after being reminded of the schumi pedro situation in hungary '06 that there shouldn't have been a penalty for Lewis.
Kubica gains the same amount of advantage when pushed off the track by Massa earlier in the lap (Kubica pushed Massa off the track at the end) thus they pretty much made a punishment meaningless as both would have recieved the same one.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you...

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2006/09/0...nery-at-monza/

Regards

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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

Definitely not this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5UnPeyzcHM

Incidentally, no penalty was handed out.

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yeah, but you're comparing apples and oranges.

schumacher clearly breached the rules here (i'd love to see even tamburello and ioan argue that he didn't), gained an advantage by cutting the circuit and didn't get punished.

three quarters of observers on this forum believe hamilton didn't breach the rules and he got punished.

that's because hamilton slowed to allow kimi past - and by a full car length - before he attacked again.

it's the same sporting code we're talking about and the same rulebook by at least one of the same stewards.

my best guess, based on years of racing experience, would be that any telemetry would confirm the visuals, and would prove that kimi braked significantly earlier than hamilton.

did hamilton gain an advantage, that seems to be the only question. have a look at how close he was all the way along the increasingly wet back straight, then look at how close he was again at the start-finish line.

it seems that, if anything, there's more distance between the two cars at the start-finish line.

where's that advantage, then?

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Originally Posted by Viktory

Yeah well. I have already stated that, after being reminded of the schumi pedro situation in hungary '06 that there shouldn't have been a penalty for Lewis.
Kubica gains the same amount of advantage when pushed off the track by Massa earlier in the lap (Kubica pushed Massa off the track at the end) thus they pretty much made a punishment meaningless as both would have recieved the same one.

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meaningless ? well if they also where given a 25 sec penalty or a drive true....would that not have influenced the race ?

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Originally Posted by hmmm - donuts

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you...

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2006/09/0...nery-at-monza/

Regards

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The problem is that when Ferrari do it, then the rules are changed to accomodate them.

When McLaren do it, they cede the position back just in case and still get penalised.

:laugh:

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Originally Posted by hmmm - donuts

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you...

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2006/09/0...nery-at-monza/

Regards

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Nice find!!

Here's hoping that speed bumps (a la Monaco) are installed on every chicane and we'll let the bumps sort all this out for us. Although I can just hear the GPDA howling in horror at the thought.

Had this been a street circuit with no runoff room we would be saying Hamilton got too aggressive and smacked the barrier trying to overtake Raikkonen.

I genuinely don't believe that there is any bias evident towards Ferrari at all. Do we always have to either be biased or accuse others of it in spite of a lack of evidence?

However, I get the feeling that some here would only be happy if Hamilton had allowed Raikkonen to remain ahead of him until the flag.